i know this is a long shot but any rough dates yet for next years?
Possibly august bank holiday(iknow but the touring cars nicked our date)28th /29th.
bugger if it is, that been the date of the 2cvgb international, cheers paul
That would be a bugger! Just remember that the only dates that are fixed so far are the F1 date (but not the venue, and the BTCC dates. Don't expect final confirmation until at least the end of this month!
Quote from: Trevor Williams on November 10, 2009, 15:29:59
That would be a bugger! Just remember that the only dates that are fixed so far are the F1 date (but not the venue, and the BTCC dates. Don't expect final confirmation until at least the end of this month!
Trevor, you still got my number? Will you let me know when the date has been confirmed - if I am still welcome in the team that is!
Donald
Am sure it's been raised (and I know this is very early, but it was in my head earlier and so i thought I'd put it out there)...
Last year one team in the 24 Hours put tape over the names of the drivers that weren't in the car, which made it so much easier for us as commentators (and i'd imagine the spectators too) to find out who's in the car. Can this be made a rule this year?
Regards
Jon Waldock
The organisers can put whatever they feel is necessary into the Supplementary Regs for the race, so long as they are published with the entry form. After that, changes need to be agreed by all who have entered an event up to the date of the change and the MSA I think
what penalty do you think would be fair if the name wasn't changed over then?Drive thru?stop go,5 laps like a tow back?There would have to be a penalty or who would bother?
Quote from: Paul Robertson on January 05, 2010, 14:18:13
what penalty do you think would be fair if the name wasn't changed over then?Drive thru?stop go,5 laps like a tow back?There would have to be a penalty or who would bother?
I don't know really, part of me thinks that there shouldn't need to be because it's in everyones interest, but I take your point, I really don't know what I'd put as a penalty, but would imagine a black and orange, correct within 3 laps and then a suitable penalty, a stop go maybe.
I hadn't thought as far as a penalty, but remember thinking that having to pound up and down the pitlane with a clipboard and a piece of paper checking all the names i had down were right, took away from the commentary a bit.
I would not support this at all!! It's not necessary and in no way performance enhancing. The info is available from Race Admin anyway
I can just see someone forgetting to remove and replace the tape in the heat of the moment at 3am and it costing them a drive-through etc.
Quote from: Trevor Williams on January 05, 2010, 16:43:51
I would not support this at all!! It's not necessary and in no way performance enhancing. The info is available from Race Admin anyway
I can just see someone forgetting to remove and replace the tape in the heat of the moment at 3am and it costing them a drive-through etc.
It dosen't necessarily have to be a penalty, I hadn't thought of that until Paul raised it, but for spectators and commentators, it made it alot easier to find out who's in the car.
It is of course completely dependent upon the pit crew remembering in the heat of the moment during a pit stop to tape over the relevant name! In my view, although it is a nice idea I doubt that it is a reliable way of establishing who is in the car.
Surely if it becomes a rule, then all involved will have to comply or face the penalty (a simple drive back to the pits, and get it changed) with the success of the race being aired on the InterWeb, its a good thing if the commentary team knows who's driving the car at what time, if it ads to the overall product and helps out the commentators, then I thinks its a good idea.
I like both schools of thought. Yes, Paul is correct that if theres a rule there has to be consequences due to non-conformance, however I do also feel that the information should be accurate and up to date up at race control anyway. Is the Clerk of the Course not Legally (certainly within Motor sport Rules) obliged to know which driver is out on the circuit?
Having said that i can see the point that it would make spectating more interesting and easier to understand. There are people out there who watch club motor sport avidly and do fill in the blanks provided in the programmes.
If this was put in to our supplementary regs' for the event, Tape ('gaffer' or otherwise) just does not 'cut the mustard'. The method would have to be slot in name cards or such. Have you ever tried to stick tape to a wet, dirty, oil and petrol stained car.
If it was mandatory however, then it would have to be done, and that should ultimately be the team managers job to ensure that the car does not leave the pits unless the correct name is applied to the car. It should be as important and routine as any other mandatory thing, such as fastening the drivers belts or making sure the pin is out of the extinguisher!
Maybe we are looking at this the wrong way. Surely it would be better to improve the accuracy and speed of information flow to the race control / timekeepers and subsequently commentators. My personal suggestion would be to change the way the driver change sheets are handled. Each team should be responsible for taking them directly to race control. Thus negating the potential for them to be in an orange pocket for a while for whatever reason or being lost in transit. (No i'm not knocking our wonderful friends).
My personal preference would be not to have to change the driver names on the car, as any temporary method of affixing has the potential to fail, (fall off) then inadvertently the car no longer complies, which could result in an unscheduled stop or penalty.
I hope this was reasonably objective and provides an alternative way of thinking around the potential problems of not being able to identify the driver at a glance.
Cheers
Oh i just thought what about publishing information bulletins on driver changes, or publish which driver is in the car when the hourly race bulletin goes out??
Cheers from very snowy Barnsley.
Bully
Quote from: Andrew Bull on January 06, 2010, 00:01:38
If this was put in to our supplementary regs' for the event, Tape ('gaffer' or otherwise) just does not 'cut the mustard'. The method would have to be slot in name cards or such. Have you ever tried to stick tape to a wet, dirty, oil and petrol stained car.
I think we need some input from the Dutch team, who did this last year, to find out what they used.
You make some good points, and i'll definitely make sure I use the CoC and other such people for this years event. I completely agree about the change sheets though.
Jon ,the teams fill in a driver change form which the marshals hand in to race admin .I assume they must keep a log of who is in the car so they know how long the driver has been in the car(3hr rule)and also in case of an incident .Maybe we can make this accessable to the commentary team.
What do they at Le Mans?
Quote from: philip myatt on January 06, 2010, 16:10:39
What do they at Le Mans?
All the names are on hte car, and then name of the person in the car are on the timing screen.
Andy
You are correct in that the Clerk must ensure that the driver(s) are qualified for that particular car, and also have the responsibility to ensure that no-one does more than three hours without a minimum one hour break between stints. This has previously been done by a BIG piece of paper with the cars down one side and the hours accross the top, and four different coloured highlighter pens under the control of the Secretary of the Meeting in Race Admin. They might use computers now!
If anyone needs / wants to know who was in a car at a particular moment, that is where you would get the info!
We just used painter's tape to cover the names of the drivers that weren't in the car as other/better tape ruined the vinyl lettering.
The crew made it part of their pit procedure, but nevertheless we did forget it ones (I think).
And...last year, all 24 hrs of the race were completely dry...don't know how the tapes does when it's wet
cheers
ps. when will the official 2010 regs be available?
Le Mans??? Bit quicker I think. Not much else!!
If you look carefully at a Le Mans car you'll see two things:
- the number panel is electro-luminescent, and I think has the race number light out of a dark backround. Such panels list at around £200 each. The refective panels we used in '09 seemed to work very well and I don't think we need to spend £400 or so on lit panels.
- a vertical row of three big dots, on each side. They are lit up depending upon which driver, 1, 2 or 3, is in the car. The operational procedure for that is helped by the fact that each car garage has a race official in it at all times, checking on all sorts of things. Whether the changes are made during the pit-stop or are radio linked in some way, I don't know.
I think that to have each driver numbered in the programme, and to have the illuminated dots fitted to a couple of the cars would be worth a trial in the 2010 race. There should be plenty of time during the petrol fill for someone to flick a switch or two. The numbering could be set by the team and repeated in the qualifying listing and on signs by each garage.
We'd be happy to develop something, and with LED's so easily available, there would be limited drain on the electrics.
Quote from: Martin HARROLD on January 08, 2010, 20:47:51
If you look carefully at a Le Mans car you'll see two things:
.....
- a vertical row of three big dots, on each side. They are lit up depending upon which driver, 1, 2 or 3, is in the car.
The lights are actually for you to see if the car you're watching is in the top 3 in class, different lights are lit depending on whether it's 1st, 2nd or 3rd in class, but the idea of numbered drivers does sound good
Jon - thanks - one learns something new every day!
Interesting that the AOC thinks that spectators are more interested in the position of the car in its class than who is actually driving it. And, if it does indicate race positions then it must be radio controlled. Pretty complex.
I've just read Jon's earlier post. Cracking idea that the driver in the car is indicated on the timing screen. I'll talk to TSL about that, for it would be a big help to those following it at the circuit and on the web. Being realistic, any indicator on the car would actually be very hard to read.
Exactly how is the information going to get to the timekeepers?? The race is at Snetterton!! The circuit with the timekeepers OUTSIDE the track!!!! And it still relies on the information that is avaiable in race control!!
The race is great as it is.... a Citroen 2CV 24 Hour Race. Le Mans we ain't, and I'm glad because the entry fee would be extortionate!
And exactly how many paying spectators does the race attract? Not enough to warrant any additional cost which would be passed on to the competitors via the entry fee!
If it ain't broke, why try to fix it?
Quote from: Trevor Williams on January 09, 2010, 21:01:10
If it ain't broke, why try to fix it?
I get your point, and agree to a certain extent, but why change it? to make it better, no it's not broken but this year was the first year of the webcast with RSL/RLM, there wasn't any need to do it, but i know people who had no idea the event existed and they stayed up for many hours watching and listening to the webcast. This year (as written here by Martin: http://www.2cvracing.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1469.0.html) theres a possibility that there may be an increased webcast with multiple camera angles and such, my point being, no it's not broke, but can the event be improved? of course.
I think Trevor and Jon are both right.
It's quite correct that the Club should always be looking to improve the racing and the presentation of the racing for the competitors, the crews and the spectators. Nothing stands still in motor racing. (Sorry, that is a dreadful unintentional pun)
It's also true that we have to be aware of any cost and resource implications of possible changes.
I've had a prompt reply from Tony Daff of TSL, who do the timing, and it's not very encouraging. To have 'driver in' info on the timing screens is done professionally and automatically with special 4 driver transponders, at £450 a go. Drivers just have to turn a switch to their driver number when they get in the car.
To gather and input data manually in some way would be difficult in any case. But as Trev reminds us , with the timing box on the other side of an uncrossable track, it's almost impossible to have the level of communication required to ensure any reasonable level of accuracy of the info on screen.
To have 'driver in' info would be interesting to those who will be following on the webcast, and very helpful to crews planning strategy for their cars. It would also greatly help the commentators.
Maybe a simple solution will be developed, but I'm not too confident. Still, at least the 'on screen' idea will have been examined.
We can continue to consider some kind of low-tech visual indicators on the cars.
Just an idea. Speedway riders are identified by a coloured pull-on cover on their helmet. red, blue, white & yellow. Would need to be fireproof of course.Or a coloured patch on the sides could suffice. Teams would need to notify driver colour before the race. As added interest to other drivers when on the track, the colour could indicate how the team rate their drivers e.g. red equals driver no.1. etc.
Again..... Why add additional tasks to an already stressfull situation??
If you want to know who is in any particular car, walk up to Race Admin and ask Nicola (or whoever else is on duty at the time!)
Drivers put their name or initials on the side of their helmets (as they do at Spa) - anybody in the commentary box can then tell who is in the car (might need a pair of binoculars!?) :-\
most gt cars use driver dedicated transponder cards but even they get confused should drop in a receiver on the door or rocker panel jon davis
Tony Daff at TSL has advised that after much head scratching, they have decided that there is no effective, low-cost, way to have Driver-In info on the timing screens.
So, it looks like it will be left to the ingenuity of teams to work out some ways to do it which can be tested in the 2010 race. The most promising seems to be either big initials or code letters on the driver's helmets.
I also have recently learnt that our long-time lead commentator, Alan Hyde, cannot be at the 24hr this year, as he's otherwise engaged on BTCC duty. We are consulting with Debs at Snet on a replacement.