Who's racing the C1 then?
I realise I am about to deeply offend the 2cv purists but.....
I'm quite excited at the prospect of C1's being allowed to enter. They are great little cars, handle well and are surprisingly nippy. Body panels are cheap, they use less petrol than a 2cv and the Toyota engine is easy to service. There's no shortage of them about. It's the equivalent of 2cv's in 1989. Cheap, fun racing without too much fiddling. I'll have some of that...
Go race in the Citroen c1 championship then! It's nothing to do with purist they are totally different animals. I can already see how it could pan out........ Cars eligible from 2005 - 2014 big budget means a newer less hammered car, little budget propping up the grid! Sounds fabulous to me can I have a blue one with a green snake please?? I can have a front shocker off the 2cv in about 90 seconds, how long for you to do the same job on the c1 Adam??
It's no bad thing for the board to look at other options of keeping alive the best race in the UK- The 2cv 24hr race.
If (introducing C1's) kickstarts another modern day low cost series to supplement or run alongside the current championship, surely that's better for everyone in the long run?
I don't think anyone wants a small grid where everyone pays more, or worse still a 24hr race not being financially viable.
Change isn't always a bad thing.
I realise in the time it took me to type this, Ash has removed all four shock absorbers.
I understood there are over 80 cars in various states of repair,why do we need to build more cars,let alone not a 2cv ? We already have" not 2cv's "with the mini's,if the C1 builders don't want to race a 2cv in the 24hr they can race a mini. The C1 is not a classic and has no place on our grid. What next Pink Smart cars?
Why should the 2CV Racing Club be subsidising the start-up of a new racing series? Have these C1 cars and series been approved by the MSA? Have the amendments to the 2CV Racing Club Championship Regulations, notably Section 6.0 been approved by all registered competitors and the MSA??
MASSIVE can of worms being opened here.......
The question is if there are so many cars why aren't people racing them? I'm sure everyone has a slightly different view.
Where do you draw the line? Some would argue that a weber doesn't have a place on a 2cv but I'm sure that change was bought in for the right reasons, even if it didn't and still doesn't please everybody.
I agree the c1 isn't a classic Paul. The problem is that the more classic and iconic the 2cv becomes, the less viable it is for a low cost championship. In 1989 (when I believe the championship started) 2cvs were as cheap as chips and easy to buy parts for. Much the same as a C1 is now.
Going back to all of the cars out there not racing. The standard of 2cv preparation has evolved to be so high that you need a lot of time or decent amount of money to pay someone to make your car competitive. Look at the last three seasons, if I use Glenn as an example he was on the podium twice in 2014 and doing very well, is the reason for him not being able to achieve the same results in the last two years down to his driving? I very much doubt it. I understand this is the nature of Motorsport but we are not pros.
For somebody like me (with well documented shortcomings) a C1 entry sounds good. For those of you who put your heart and soul in to 2cvs and have done for many years, I can understand your disapproval.
Before firing back at me and possibly getting personal, I go back to the question of why there are so many cars out there not racing. By the way mine is now up for sale.
I thought it might be worth explaining somewhat the decision to have an invitational class for C1s which, although it was taken before I became chairman, is one that Philip and I wholly support.
In the past few years, the number of 602s entering the 24hr has declined materially from around 30 cars, to 19 last year. Many reasons have been cited for this, but unquestionably a major contributory factor is that of cost, which hits in two different ways: entries and running costs. There has been much written on running costs on this forum, so I won't repeat it beyond the observation that was made, and agreed with, at the board, that a competitive 602 race car costs £12-15,000 to build today. That may be high, but long gone are the days where four mates could do the 24hr for £750, as I first did. Entry costs are a function of two things: circuit costs and numbers of entries. Circuit costs have been increasing at well beyond inflation for many years; and we are a small player in that market whether we like it or not. We have little or no control over that (although we are going to look at other circuits next year to attempt to gain some leverage). What we can influence is entry numbers, or at least try.
The simple fact is that, without the Minis and Eurocars, the 24hr would not exist today. I'm equally convinced, and am happy to sit down with anyone who doubts this to explain why, that if we continue on our current path, that the 24hr will cease to be viable. To put some context on the 24hr, it costs around £60,000 to put on. The Club has to pay almost all of that out before the race happens; and sadly, we don't all pay our entries in at the beginning of the season, so the Club needs around £50,000 of working capital simply to put the race on. Luckily, we just about have that; however, no one should fool themselves that the Club is an endless pot of gold that can run the race at a loss. For what its worth, the sprint series makes a small loss at the moment; but the cost of each race is much lower, around £7,500-8,000, so the stakes are much less. If we have 40 cars in the 24hr, then the entry fee needs to average only £1,500; if we only have 30 cars, then it needs to average £2,000. Last year, we had 28 entries; and we are going to have to work hard to repeat that number in 2016.
There are two options that we have: increase the entry price; or increase the number of entries. The first almost certainly means that the 24hr would die out and, although briefly discussed at the board, not really an option. The question therefore becomes how to increase entries. Some observations:
- We are well aware that there are around 80 602 race cars; and not all of them race. For the last 8 years, we have been trying to inveigle them out of the woodwork and failing. I am open to any and every idea anyone has to achieve this, which does not result in higher costs for everyone else, and would therefore be self-defeating. Please set it out in detail and send it to me. Let's be clear: free entries, subsidized entries etc only come out of one place: our own pockets. We have had a programme of tracking these unraced cars down and talking to the owners to try and convince them to race. There is a constant theme that comes back: costs.
- There has been discussion about converting 602s into BMW-engined cars such as the UK Hybrids. Some have been converted, including one of ours. The consensus is that the club doesn't want the Hybrids racing against the 602s; and I will paraphrase the arguments, without necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with any of them: They look too similar and go much quicker; there is an upfront cost of £3,000 to convert a car, notwithstanding potentially lower running costs and increased reliability; its no longer a 2CV; we'd all be forced to change in short order or drive around at the back with no hope of winning anything. Whatever the rights and wrongs, the consensus is that, at the moment, the Club does not want to go that way.
- Minis are equally not a cheap car. Prices seem to range from a little over £10,000 to as high as £50,000 for an FIA App K car with some history. Its great that they come and race with us, but it is no panacea for our problems.
- For those who do not have grandfathered trailer licences, race cars which require trailering to the circuit are a barrier to some potential younger competitors. A trailer licence can cost over £1,000 in total to secure; and even then, the insurance for and cost of a suitable tow vehicle can prove prohibitive.
- We can go on pretending that costs of preparing and running a 602 have not changed that much: they have; and I am probably as guilty as anyone of driving that change. It is much harder to build a competitive engine; base cars no longer cost £50-100; there is a lot of work needed to convert a road car, or even an older race car, into a competitive car. Whereas 10 years ago, it was possible with a bit of luck, to get into the top three with a car that you drove to the circuit; today it is not.
With a focus of ensuring that racing 602s in the 24hr is sustainable in the long term, that left the Club with only one real option: get some other cars to join the 24hr, just like we did with the Eurocars and Minis. When the club was set up, one of the principle objects was low-cost motorsport; and that is how it remains in the Club's Mem & Arts. The board therefore looked at what cars might be included which did not offend the various issues above and which might have sufficiently wide appeal that the grids would increase and we would be able to drive down the costs of entry materially. So why the C1, aside from its being a Citroen?
The C1 can be bought for under £1,000; and converted to a road-legal race car for under £3,500 with all new parts, with a very fixed specification:
• Safety Devices bolt-in cage
• Fixed Gaz springs and dampers
• Top and bottom front strut brace
• Seat and harnesses
• Control steel wheels and Nankang tyres
• Fire extinguisher, cut outs etc
• Interior stripped
• No other modifications
Such a car can remain road legal, so can be driven to the circuit with spare tyres and tools in the back. It could even be used as a road car as well. An entire spare car can be bought for around £250 to use as spares. Replacement wings are £29. It absolutely personifies cheap, affordable racing, which is one of the objects of the Club. When tested at Mallory, such a C1 was between 2-3 seconds a lap quicker than a 2CV 602; so is well within the lap times of Eurocars and Minis.
The board believes very firmly that introducing such a car to the 24hr could increase numbers materially. It's a car that's highly-relevant to Citroen's current product line and marketing focus; and would be very complimentary to the C1 Junior Rally Challenge; so getting Citroen's support for the race becomes much more likely. Its also a car that younger competitors associate with; and many learnt to drive on.
The announcement has been met highly positively, and seems to confirm the board's opinion. We have had a large number of enquiries from people who would like to run a C1 in the 24hr, which is tremendously encouraging; and BARC are highly supportive.
We have a relatively stark choice. We can refuse to change and die out; or we can change and flourish. There is no real middle ground, however much we might all like there to be one. If we want to retain the 24hr, we are going to need more cars on the grid: this plan is that which the board believes most likely to achieve that.
Hi Meyrick, thanks for the above, for me my question was purely out of interest to see whom is entering/racing the C1?
Thanks for explaining it all Meyrick. So long as we have fixed regulations and limited variables, I think it will be a great addition. I had a C1 from new and gave it a hard 90'000 miles before I traded it in. It didn't let me down at all, fantastically simple and surprisingly good to drive.
It sounds to me like the latest additions to the board have already decided that there isn't a future for our classic 2cv! Maybe we should change the club name! I fear that the 2cv 24hr race will become the C1,Mini,Hybrid 24 race with the classic 2cv race club invited to tag along. I realise that the present board didn't make the decision to have this years race when they did, but the promise of cheaper racing has never been satisfied. The main reason I think for the distinct lack of entries this year is the ridiculous time and date it is and the increase in costs. If the board had the sense to sell the track time over the whole weekend to other racing clubs, that would subsidise the cost and allow us to have a Classic 2cv 24hr race with only 2cvs! I understand that the cost of running a classic 2cv has grown over the years, but people seem quick to blame the cost of car preparation, when I think a reduction in entry fees would bring more cars out......never felt the need to rant until now...
Re my appeal for arm's, the current discussion on the forum seems to be more concerned with alm's ?
2CV's is a distinctive club with a splendid history and whatever happens should guard against going down the caterfield route where no imagination or ingenuity is required just dosh to buy bit A or B to go faster. Yes there is some of that in 2CV's but hopefully room will be left for classes within the 2CV club to develop while the basic classes remain fully supported & unmolested.
We should always remember that BARC will be keeping an eye on developments and if a more attractive class comes along out we could go ! what then put number plates on it and have runs to the seaside ..........
12-15K ??!!
build cost seems to have gone up.
good rant Glen
G
Colin,why would you sell your car for £6400 when it cost £12000 to build?
"fiefdom" is the word that springs to my mind!!!
I don't think I have ever claimed mine cost £12000 to build but if I charged myself for the hours it took it would probably cost that and more.
Good lord that's 4 C1's in their enthusiasts speak !!!
Sprint races seem to be pretty well attended. The big problem is the 24hr and Phil seemed pretty confident of arranging a 3 year deal to get it back to Snetterton. (on the bank holiday weekend, I hope) So that should be the problem solved.
We have got a few new and great looking cars on our grid, along with new drivers. We could always do with a few more, but on the whole I don't see the need to panic.
As the dinner dance is going to be early in the New Year (I think), does the board have a date and location in mind for the AGM? (it needs to be this year)
If you thrash a C1 around a track and don't enjoy yourself, you are absolutely entitled to be less than complimentary.
2cvs are very unique and have bags of character, but they are not as cheap to buy, run or buy parts for as they used to be. I don't want to see the series end, having another class won't steal the thunder of 2cvs. They will always be the stars of the show and therefore so will the drivers.
Did introducing Minis cause that much of a problem? I was there when the proposal was put forward, it wasn't entirely well received, but (apart from blinding us with their lights) they've been great. It hasn't detracted from the 2cvs being the stars of the show.
Are we a cheap and cheerful racing series where the average man in the street can have a go? Is the club specifically for 2cv experts and enthusiasts affiliated with garages? At least the proposal gives both types of person a chance to race and be competitive.
So are you suggesting we race the 2cv and c1 in the same race ???
Why not?
Yes the the standard car has 68bhp, but it weighs a fair bit more and hasn't been developed on track for the last 27 years.
Back in 2001 the BTCC had production and touring classes. The production class was there to help bolster the grid. To keep the races close the tourers had to complete one more lap than the production cars. Another option would be 2cvs starting and C1's starting 1 minute, 30 seconds (or whatever the performance differential is) later. Two seperate classes, to different results. Think of it as 3cvs joining in.
I propose Abfitness as the chairman of the Citroen C1 Racing Club
G
If the C1 was slower than the 2CV then I could understand. One of the gripes about the other classes running in our race is that there will never be an overall victory for a Uk championship spec 2CV.
My heart lies with the mighty dueche. I still own my first car which was a purple painted 2cv6 rebuilt by myself at the age of 16. I have driven C1 and :-\pug106. (Would we allow aygo and pug???). And yes I do think they are the millenniums answer to the 2CV. Thrashed mercilessly (loan car from Perrys) it gave that same feeling of fun at low speed and relatively safely. It is the modern day 2CV cousin.
Any change as Adam says is not always bad but maybe we have to look back in time to our own past before going forward. What elements have we allowed over the years that have made the racing expensive. What modifications could we reverse to bring costs back under control. Standard shocks? Standard flywheel, I've just save £1000 in those two items. It's not always about going faster. Our racing at brands hatch was the closest race of the day. We need to keep that In mind. And make sure that the experiments we do as a club don't detract from the main focus of this club. The C1 must be kept slower than a 2CV. A previous post mentioned BTTC bring in a second class to support them. Exactly. The primary attraction and fastest things were the full Touring cars not the support class. We have it the wrong way round.
The are plenty of other clubs and championships that could join us if that were the case. Saxo juniors, stock hatch, max5s. These things are easy to slow down. Restricted and standard tyres or narrower tyres etc.
I don't have the answers and I have every confidence the board and the members will choose the right direction to maintain 2cv racing. Be this by joining others or allowing others to join us or by reducing build costs /running costs and entry fees with clever negotiations with track owners and BARC.
Keep at it and we will find a solution.
2cv 24 hour race.
Remember when that was what it was about? No Invited classes?
The truth of the matter is that the number of UK 2cv teams is not really warranting the race. Therefore the need for more entries.
I wonder what the problems are?
Perhaps its Anglesey, perhaps its not the right venue, I'm not sure we have given it enough of a chance, the year we had with the joint event with the 2cv gb club was pretty spectacular. It brought added value, it brought out some old faces. ( I like an old face me..)
Would we get more entries if we reverted back to Snetterton.... Who knows? The showers are better.. surely this race doesn't revolve around the quality of the showers. Is multi class fields the answer to longevity. Possibly? its possible that the multi class field puts off a few potential 2cv teams too.
I think there are probably a few golden rules to abide by with the 24 hour race such as holding it over a bank holiday weekend, preferably with a mid afternoon start time. This year the timetable is not appealing. I know there were reasons for it and im not blaming anybody for it. But it isn't helpful.
The club 'rules' state that the object of the club is 'the promotion of circuit racing Citroen 2cv6 motor cars'.
The problem here is that the club also needs to make it financially work. And it is apparently easier to get mini's and C1's than 2cvs. However, the club does have a legacy of bringing in changes that are ill thought out and not properly researched. (see Weber for details) So I hope that If we do have to share with C1's then it is done on a trial basis only.
To perhaps try to turn some negatives here into positives, perhaps there are a few things the 'club' ought to review to encourage more 2cv's onto the circuit, for instance the pricing of the entry could be more heavily stacked in favour of teams entering 2cv's?.
I am now back in possession of the 2cv race car database. It contains about 75 cars.
Although these cars seem to have been difficult to tease out of their garages and onto a circuit I've never yet heard a convincing argument as to why they aren't out. only speculation.
On the plus side it seems cars aren't disappearing. they are still out there. there have been a few changed hands recently and for relatively strong money with most changing hand quickly too it all points to a strong market. I also know of a few new cars being built too.
So seemingly the impossible task is to find out what will bring the cars back to the circuit. Lets face it their ornamental qualities are poor.
If nobody objects i'll put a questionnaire together to e mail to all car owners to see if we can do something as a club to get these cars racing again.
A questionnaire sounds a great idea but the problem is the direction of the questions ? do you put out the first one to see what the questions should be. With poor turnout for the 24, C1 question / imposition a lot of serious questions to resolve.
Excuse me for stick my head out a bit here, I am only really on here because of the 24 hrs at Anglesey, I adore this event and have loved marshaling the last two. fairly certain that my opinion is quite small in the grand scheme of things makes little difference but I like the idea of adding the c1's to mix. the stars of show always are the 2cv's, and as someone that has many years ago admittedly, followed a 2cv round Oulton park at track day in my diesel lupo of time. there wasn't much in it but I could not keep up with the 2cv. plus the 2cv's in a 24 hour have added advantages could you imagine a c1 having an engine problem fixed or the engine changed in 8 minutes? I hope you don't think I am sticking my nose into something that's not really my business but I do really think the addition of c1's for the 24 hours is an interesting idea. whether anyone builds one or even if they will finish if they do build one is a question I have been wondering. anyway that's my thoughts at least. thank you.