Classic 2CV Racing Club Ltd

Classic 2CV Racing Club Ltd Forum => 24h-Race => Topic started by: Maisie on August 17, 2016, 13:11:27

Title: 24hr press article
Post by: Maisie on August 17, 2016, 13:11:27
Edit to add: seems to be from today's Motorsport News (17th August) from the header on the Anglesey Circuit original post.

I would like to express my dismay at what seems to me to be an ill-thought out, incredibly premature/presumptive and potentially extremely damaging press release (see attached).

"The C1 has been introduced as a trial for this weekend's event at Anglesey as a cheaper alternative to thje ageing and increasingly rare 2CV machines" (my italics)

1) I can fully understand why a couple of C1s were mooted as a quick boost to numbers for the 24hr race when entries were looking pretty dire earlier in the year, but AN ALTERNATIVE?? News to me... and probably news to 99.9% of the rest of the (may I remind you) CLASSIC 2CV RACING CLUB (The clue is in the title!). Ageing they may be, but no more so than an equivalent Mini. Getting rarer and more expensive to buy, sure, but there are literally dozens of unused racing cars sitting in garages and we need to know why and to encourage them out so that rarity is not a factor.

"..The problem is racing 2CVs is quite an expenswive business..."

Is it?? Chris and I manage on a shoestring budget around a not-inconsiderable mortgage and other outgoings. We were lucky to find out car relatively cheaply, but it needed some work. No-one's forcing you to hire a Pete Sparrow to drive, or to get a specialist restoration company to do your bodywork, or pay an engine builder to put a dozen engines together and rolling road them. With a bit of mechanical know-how, a willingness to get stuck in and learn and some canny shopping around, a 2CV is, again, no more difficult or expensive to maintain than the equivalent racing Mini.

".. they are easier to police..." Don't know about that since there aren't any regulations for C1s. BUT I do know that the 2CV racing club regs could be a lot clearer (although this has improved of late) and as for policing, the lack thereof should have been noted and rectified a very long time ago. This is being worked on by the tech committee, but it's been lax for an awfully long time. It doesn't have to be difficult, we just need to make sure someone actually DOES it, has the power to enforce their findings and that the membership are encouraged to understand and conform to the regs.

"... they will be cheaper to run too..." How cheap? Who's running them? What resources do they have? Are they tinkering in their own garages or farming the work out to the nearest engine tuner? It's not black and white. Our car gets a quick checkoever between races, a fill-up of fuel, maybe a tyre if needed between races then it's ready to hit the track again. What's so expensive about that?? It's what you make it.

"We will try to maintain at least 50 per cent 2CVs" Is this an official club line? If so, since when? To me it smacks of "We acknowledge the 2CV is dying on its bum and we've all but given up, but will try to keep a few knocking about for the die-hards while we go and play with our easy new shiny things". This statement is effectively killing off the 2CV 24hr race as a race FOR 2CVs without a chance to put a year's effort, increased publicity and communication into building the race back up again. If you give the impression that the 2CV is slowly dying off, you run the risk of it becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. No-one's going to want to join if they think they're going to be spending serious amounts of cash to join a dying championship.

We have a GREAT racing club, for GREAT cars, which DO NOT need to be expensive or difficult to run if you're willing to put in a bit of time and effort. The whole unique selling point of the CLASSIC 2CV RACING CLUB is... THE CITROEN 2CV. The cars look unlike anything else. They are built unlike anything else. They are THE best car for a 24hr race because of their reliability and repairability (imagine half a grid of C1s have an engine issue or suspension damage in the first hour of a race - the track would be virtually empty for hours!).

Let's all be POSITIVE for a change and ALL put the effort to keeping the 2CV RACING CLUB RACING 2CVs.
To the committee: don't forget the club's title and ethos. Involve and consult the membership and don't ride rough-shod over it for your own aims. Make timely decisions and communicate so that people have time to make plans early. Don't just focus on , think of the bigger picture (sacrificing the chance to get together which is so much a part of the 24hr for the chance to save a bit of cash being a prime example).
To the members: support the club. Bring those old cars out. Show up to races. If you don't like where the club is going, join the board or speak up. Put your memberships and race entries in early. Let's make this a collaborative, smooth-running club and keep it going in a positive upwards direction. A few months of serious effort to promote the club and race have paid dividends. Don't write the whole thing off without giving the momentum a chance to continue.

We're far from dead and buried but if people keep giving out the impression that we're doomed, we soon will be!

Title: Re: 24hr press release
Post by: Roy Eastwood on August 17, 2016, 14:05:35
Well said, well written.

Title: Re: 24hr press release
Post by: Martin Harrold on August 17, 2016, 14:43:38
Where was that published?
It's got my name all over it, but I did not send anything like it to any journal nor do I recall speaking to any journo on the subject of the C1. I would not do it deliberately, as I am not aware that any board decision about C1's has been made apart from agreeing to a trial in the race this weekend. I guess that any further decision would be for the next AGM.
I would have thought that my personal commitment to 602's is very well known.

Title: Re: 24hr press release
Post by: Trevor Williams on August 17, 2016, 15:16:32
Well said Maisie!! Wholeheartedly agree with everything you have written there!!

Martin, if someone is using my name and "quoting" me without your permission, I would be mad beyond belief!

Someone needs to answer for that piece of sh1te......

Title: Re: 24hr press release
Post by: Roy Eastwood on August 17, 2016, 16:15:58
It did seem odd.

Where was that published?
It's got my name all over it, but I did not send anything like it to any journal nor do I recall speaking to any journo on the subject of the C1. I would not do it deliberately, as I am not aware that any board decision about C1's has been made apart from agreeing to a trial in the race this weekend. I guess that any further decision would be for the next AGM.
I would have thought that my personal commitment to 602's is very well known.

Title: Re: 24hr press release
Post by: Simon Crook on August 17, 2016, 16:32:42
As an article this is very damaging to the club - and very disappointing to read, whomever wrote this article should explain to the club members why such an article was written.

The opening statement on 'our clubs website' The club has been racing the iconic French 2CV for over 25 years now, and has always been recognised as providing close, exciting racing and a friendly atmosphere, while keeping costs to a minimum.   

Title: Re: 24hr press release
Post by: Paul on August 17, 2016, 16:53:32
A 31 car grid and we need two C1's ?
I was at Blyton sprint circuit yesterday and the manager there knew about it !

I didn't realise the club was in such financial difficulty that the board were willing to ruin the club and it's 28 year history.
 An 18 car grid at Mondello ,a year with no 24hr race at all and we survived both of those,the first sign of trouble the new board capitulates to something we have turned down once.
 Supposedly there were plenty of people who said they were going to enter,it would appear the board didn't wait for. Did they make any effort to find out why the entries were PENDING,maybe the early bird incentive was too little too late and the expense of new helmets and hans device delayed some people.
Will we ever know?
 I'm glad the membership get their vote at the agm.

I propose: No C1 class at the 24hr race any seconders?

Title: Re: 24hr press release
Post by: gadget on August 17, 2016, 17:10:31
I wonder who wrote that?????
I should think someone will own up over the weekend!

Title: Re: 24hr press release
Post by: Katy Storey on August 17, 2016, 17:20:58
WOW I am speechless

Title: Re: 24hr press article
Post by: Marc Fenner on August 18, 2016, 06:05:37
Im hoping to finally get out and race next year with the 2CV's after God knows how many years on the spanners
If the C1's get agreed I won't be doing any races. I will go find another single car championship.
Why would you want to race in a race you have no chance of getting a decent result in.

Also I very much doubt I would continue sponsoring as Liqui Moly as the 2CV's would lose the marketing appeal and nothing would get published about them. The C1's would always be dominating the races as I'm sure they will for this years 24hr.
It's going to be a real shame if the 2 C1's go out this year to try and win the race as that will just kill the club

Title: Re: 24hr press article
Post by: Bart van Wijngaarden on August 18, 2016, 20:03:48
I am only an outsider but must say I find it quite a shame that modern cars join the 2CV 24hrs.

What I don't understand is that Rent boys had 2 red 2cv's out last year(s). Assuming they still have those, why do they bring out 2 C1's and the 43 Gulf colored 2CV instead?? Why not race the red 2CVs they already have in the garage (+ Gulf 2CV)?? Meyrick Cox writes elsewhere they have spares etc enough.

Anyway, everybody have good time this weekend!!

Title: Re: 24hr press article
Post by: Scooterman on August 18, 2016, 20:40:44
Cheap and simple racing where the driver can make the difference..... You could be an average driver in the championship nowadays and still be at the sharp end if you are a good engineer/mechanic, or you are prepared to spend paying someone to do it for you.

My point is ( and 90% of you completely disagree) that the championship has evolved to be a battle of engineers.
People complain about the DNA being lost, but surely the DNA changed with the evolution of the championship?

As soon as you allow variations of suspension, shock absorbers, brake pads and introduce a carb that constantly needs fiddling with (and visits to a rolling road) you lose the low cost element. Those who want to argue the point probably have access to, or work in a garage.

The proposed running specification for the C1 is very simple, if those regulations were strictly followed and policed it would be the modern day equivalent of the 2cv championship in 1989.

Keep it simple, keep it cheap and let the driver make the difference. I have nothing but respect for the level of engineering that is going in to the front running cars, but really is it what the championship should be about? If it is the regulation point about driver skill needs to be re-written.

Title: Re: 24hr press article
Post by: Simon Crook on August 19, 2016, 07:09:53
Adam I totally agree with what you are saying, but in all forms of Motorsport you get front runners, those that occasionally get near the top five cars, mid pack runners and those that run around at the back - I've been one of those - I think the point here is that if you want to race a C1, 107, Aygo or what ever variant, this is the Classic 2cv Racing Club (as per the tag at the top) - All of the club members (well most of them) did not know about the C1 being entered into the 24hr race, then we find out, not one but two are entered into the race - this was not just a 'lets put these cars into the 24hr race moment' it was planned which is the issue.

And I know before I get told well you don't race often enough Simon, your not racing at the 24hr blah blah - If I was in the UK I would be - If I could offer the club more time I would, I've tried to help out where I can and race whenever I can, and support the club where I can (Autosport show, Citroen's 90th Celebration and the fuel bungs from America). As most of you know I sold my car recently and we are building a new car for next season. In my short time here at the club, I've seen the clubs ups and downs 'four or five chairmen' - Firestones too Michelins, Michelins too Toyo's - the Weber '2 seconds a lap' All of us including our title sponsor, supporters are here because of one thing the Citroen 2cv.     

Title: Re: 24hr press article
Post by: Trevor Williams on August 19, 2016, 08:32:40
There is no such thing as cheap motorsport.... I know for a fact (because he has told me) how much one ex champion spent one year in winning the championship. And as another well-known northern race car preparer once said "if you can't afford to take 1,000 out of your pocket and burn it right now, you can't afford to go racing". When we were doing 10 to 12 sprint races plus a couple of endures as the championship, entry fees were around 3,000 per year. Add in travel etc and you were looking at close to 5,000 just to put a car on the grid....

The Engineering-minded will always come up with something that may or may not give them and their teams an advantage. There have been angled barrels and other such things in the previous years. When I raced there was the ever present spectre of "they're racing a dodgy cam" plus the "if you don't have the right solex, you are going nowhere fast" and the good old definition of the word "or" in relation to cylinder heads. In all instances, where an advantage has been gained / found the club endeavoured to re-level the playing field (Club cam, Weber carb) or changed the regs to allow an illegality to become legal. there is a saying "You cannot un-invent the atomic bomb".....

And as for driver skill, for the entire 10 years that I raced, a certain multiple champion would regularly jump in other racer's cars, stick them on pole and win the race, when in the hands of the owner / regular driver the car would be mid-field at best. It takes at least two years to get to grips with the quirks of the 2CV if you are a complete novice to racing.

This is the Classic 2CV Racing Club (I never understood the need for the word Classic), which are raced by enthusiasts for that car. It is NOT the Citroen C1 Racing Club. If you want to race C1s, go start your own club, get a race organiser get the regs approved by the MSA and run your series for three years, and then after that, if you have enough entries, become a MSA Championship. If anyone wants to do that, good luck, crack on, but do NOT use THIS club's money, resources and membership to do this

Title: Re: 24hr press article
Post by: Katy Storey on August 22, 2016, 19:32:02
Just a reminder to everyone - the AGM is on the 19th November in Birmingham. Don't forget you must be a member of the club to vote on anything so please come along.

Title: Re: 24hr press article
Post by: Maisie on August 23, 2016, 21:43:12
So now the race is done and dusted, what do I think of the C1? OK, yes, it proved very reliable. But why wouldn't it be? It's a modern car. My Fiat 500 has done 45,000 miles since I've had it and I'm sure I've done a lot more than 24hrs in it. OK, I might not be jumping kerbs or braking and accelerating so hard, but I'm hardly Miss Daisy and I'd be very disappointed if it hadn't covered that distance without using more than a couple of sets of brakes and tyres, fuel and the occasional bulb. The manufacturer has done all the hard work of engineering it for me.
The C1 is a perfectly capable car, but sadly lacking in personality (as are most modern cars which have regressed to an aerodynamic norm of shape). As I've said earlier, people do this not just for the endurance race aspect, but because they love the 2CV. At leasy the Euros share some styling cues and the Minis have that classic appeal.
As Trevor said, there are plenty of places you could go to race a C1. There is ONE place where you can race a 2CV. If the C1 is allowed to proliferate and dilute and devalue the 2CV racing, then there will be NOWHERE we can race our cars.
After all, this is an ENDURANCE race. We all accept that maybe a driver will buzz an engine, or a bearing might go or something else. It's getting that unique mix of prep, driving skill, reliability, economy and LUCK right to win the race that gets the satisfaction. It's the feeling of overcoming adversity, when everything comes together. Where's the challenge in buying something modern, throwing a few basic mods at it (and believe me if there were more racing regularly those mods would be just as trick as anything anyone's ever tried on 2CVs, it would still be the person with the deepest pocket buying the trickest bits or the craftiest brains coming up with something no-one's tried before).
So please let's make very, very sure we canvas the opinion of EVERYONE in this club, listen to the answers and not rush into something that will potentially kill off one of the best championships out there.

Title: Re: 24hr press article
Post by: Andrew Bull on August 23, 2016, 22:30:38
Introducing guests in to the 24hr race has diluted the race. However. We invited the Belgians. Cars already running in a championship to a set of rules and still basically A-series in DNA. the mini's are not 2cvs and yes I'm not 100% about them either. But again they are a classic club run and filled with enthusiasts and garage owners who have businesses either in the mini world of are motorsport teams looking for a classic to play with. Both these cars are faster than the 2cv and have detracted from the UK race in the press and media channels. I was most disappointed with the radio commentary. I listened at any available Opportunity and it felt like there was no chatter about the uk cars. "C1 this and c1 that". What a great experimenting .....fantastic car" it's run for 24hrs..... C1."  I was not impressed. And when you look in any press reports...look to see who won and what the picture is. We have reduced the uk class visibility by introducing faster cars to our own race.! 

What They both are however are a separate pool of cars and drivers. I don't see any 2cv'ers racing the mini in the 24hr.  If we introduce a brand new car, under our club then the pool you are targeting are the very people that we want to support to bring out thier 2cv. We haven't opened up a new market or new target audience from which to obtain racers.

Reliability of c1s. Wouldn't the race be predictable. And boring. With so much reliability the charm, skill, experience, strategy and luck will be negated.  The fastest car (most developed in capable hands) will win. Then not much of a challenge for me or my spanner wielding friends up and down the pit lanes.

Secondly, modern yes. Reliable. Bloody should be. Tyson proof?  Never!  You still have damage costs.

Performance parity?  It is absolutely irrelevant how you lay down any rules or regs or what they say. The smart guys and resourced guys and gals will be at the front developing the car or blue printing / repairing / choosing new parts / testing three different engines that they bought and rolling reading them to find the best one they can out if a selection. The same people will be at the front except we will be trying to police a new set of rules and discourage developments and performance gains.
There is only one way to do this. Use the model that any car can be bought from any competitor for a fixed fee no more no less and a sale must be agreed cars swapped. So in theory if the cars are the same Adam would be able to turn up with his car and the. Swap it with Pete and it wouldn't make any difference.!!  Or cars are owned by the club and maintained by the club and drawn out of a hat for racing at each race. A bit off topic there!!
As I have said before I like the C1Aygo107.  I am looking for one as a tow along for my Motorhome. As a road car it reminded me of driving the 2cv..... fun and thrash able. However I have had years of fun with 2cvs. This is the 2CV RACING CLUB.
If we must review inviting another car it must be a separate series where cars and competitors already exist. They are made to be slower so a uk car can have an outright win and A new pool of people elsewhere as our our new target market.  If we make a cheaper alternative to the 2cv it will kill off 2cv racing and the field will all convert to the alternative. Only the die hard, hardcore enthusiast for the mighty dueche will remain in small numbers.

Title: Re: 24hr press article
Post by: Derek Coghill on August 24, 2016, 00:30:42
I'm not in favour of the C1. All that it does is put another slightly faster car into the field to try to bully its way through and remove drivers that might otherwise have entered 2CVs.

If you want more speed, then go and race a Saxo (that view applies to quite a few rule changes, incidentally).

Title: Re: 24hr press article
Post by: Simon Crook on August 24, 2016, 06:18:06
as always interesting reading - did anyone get to the bottom of the article?

Title: Re: 24hr press article
Post by: Louis on August 24, 2016, 07:26:14
Firstly I'd like to say thank you to all those who helped get 31 cars on the grid, the entrants, marshals, mechanics, team members and of course the board.

As said by Maria, it's important that EVERYONE's opinion is canvassed... A lot of the opinion I heard in the paddock is not voiced here, several people said it was good some one was trying something to try and help the 24hr (with their own time and money not the clubs), surprisingly few '2cv people' said they'd like a go. That's good isn't it? 2cv racers (bar a couple of exceptions) didn't want to race a C1, a sentiment reflected here it seems.

Anyway I'd consider my self a 2cv person, feel free to challenge me on this, but I've had several variants, currently own 4, drove one everyday for 3 years until commuting and salt started to destroy it, I've been coming to 2cv racing since before I remember. As far as I'm comcerned the car and its ethos run in my veins. I was very much looking forward to driving the daughter car this year, I've driven the mother car on a track day but never the daughter car, both were childhood heroes of mine. I think it's good to have been a 2cv person in a C1, an open mind for a different view.

I raced a C1, and I wouldn't mind a go in a Mini. I'll challenge the point about character, I believe it's actually probably one of the most fun and characterful 'modern' cars you can buy. I say 'modern' because it has about the same amount of electronics in it as my old AX GTi (1992 so presumably developed 88 onwards). Never had any like or dislike for them previously just a view that in white they look like a washing machine! I had great fun drafting several times, couldn't see a thing in the wet in the first stint. Could make a brilliant standalone series.

The C1 was faster than I thought it'd be, is this a problem? In its own race series, not at all, in our 24hr maybe. I'd like to see a 2cv win overall or at least have the chance. I think in future we need to look at fair ways of giving every class the opportunity for an outright win. I believe we have the data now to allow this, I think the best way to do this is with a lap penalty.

On the commentary, there was a little on C1s mainly seemed to be based on the novelty, most of it focused on the hybrids as they were in the lead, which would be resolved with a system whereby all cars could win.

So; there is no proposal to introduce the C1 into our series despite the tone of the article. I don't believe the C1 should be in our series, that's my personal opinion. Other club members have disagreed with me on this, and no it wasn't Anyone who sits on the board.

Does it damage the 2cv 24hr? Not really. I don't think it made anybody else's race worse as result of the C1? The fears of a C1 obliterating a 2cv amassed to nothing, in fact Caryl's car got a good couple of dents from a 2cv and Philip's a good dent from a Mini. We already have other classes, and the C1 may further subsidise 2cv racing.

Repair costs, yep I've got some of those.

People who I've tried to get into a 2cv and failed (all licence holders and racers) have been very keen! Unfortunately there is a stigma associated with the 2cv, and after 27 years I think we can agree that it's not going anywhere. I think this means really your 2cv driver pool is limited to those who can see past the stigma.

I think people who want to race a 2cv will always race a 2cv. I'm racing a 2cv(ish) at Spa, and I'll most likely race a 2cv next year.
If you don't enter a 2cv because a C1 is entered, I don't think you really want to race a 2cv, you damage the club with that sentiment, the best way to push back against a C1 is surely to enter a 2cv and prove the numbers are not needed?

  If you do not like the C1 enter and race a 2cv, vote with your entry

What should we, as a club, do? The sprint series is always well attended, I think the formula works. 3-5 more cars would make it very well attended. In June the 24hr had 6/7 UK 2cvs entered, 12 overall and a likely final entry number of 17 (correct me if I'm wrong).
The discussion at the board meeting briefly touched on cancelling the 24hr to protect the club and allow it to continue. All agreed this was not an option, the 24hr is the jewel in the crown of the series. This is why the C1 and UK Hybrid were proposed for this years race. I voted in favour of both.

The C1 has been a trial, I'm not sure what the outcome will be. As I stated above no proposal relating to the C1.

It's clear to me that we must get more 2cvs out for the 24hr. I would love to see a full grid of 2cvs. I don't know how we do this but I know we will be trying to gather data soon.
Please help with this, be honest, tell the club what would get your car our, and how you think you can fill it with drivers.
For me, I didn't enter 66 with Paul as we both decided we needed a break, not just for us but for our friends and family who dedicate their whole August to our selfish hobby..

Title: Re: 24hr press article
Post by: Paul on August 24, 2016, 10:22:21

I like your idea of a penalty so each class could possibly win Louis.
Working on average lap scores for the leading car in each class over the past 3 years this is my estimation .
Euro hybrid no extra laps
C1 + 37 laps
Uk2cv club class +65 laps
Mini Grand +68 laps
Euro Ameliore +129 laps

If you go on this years results
C1 +31 laps
Mini Grand+61 laps
Uk2cv club class +75 laps
Euro Ameliore +123 laps
Euro Prototype +320 laps

Title: Re: 24hr press article
Post by: Nick Roads on August 25, 2016, 07:49:28
Sitting on the fence about the C1 I find myself agreeing with all the comments. Having spent a lot of time and effort on getting cars to the 24 Hour my summary for that event would be:

For entry prices to stabilise or come down slightly there needs to be grid sizes of 30+

Neutrals like the variety of cars at the race - no surprise the commentators cover them. What was a surprise listening was the tweets and other comments coming in. Near midnight I was listening to commentary coming in on Social media that Car 153 (Dalkin Euro) being described as beautiful and somewhat like the Nissan delta wing...

The club tried offering cheaper motor sport closer to the DNA of 2CV racing - it was called the economy class. That failed and has been quietly retired. Its not simply about being the cheapest that will get people out racing.

Getting a team together is a major exercise for an endurance race. These older 2CV race cars in barns need a lot of TLC to get up to race standard. To then find drivers, crew etc is simply not viable for any significant number. They should be enticed back to the sprint races first but it will take years to get them endurance racing.

It is the club's 24 Hour race and that can never be taken away. I think we should all accept that other classes are necessary in the next few years. After that its simply a question of finding the best fit - it will involve allowing different classes from time to time.

The article that started this thread off clearly wrong but it was publicity and better to have some than none.

Title: Re: 24hr press article
Post by: Roy Eastwood on August 25, 2016, 20:27:07
Undoubtedly one of the attractions of faster C1s amongst UK 2cvs is their ability to overtake the 2cvs in anybody's hands, overtaking is sometimes fun but a lot more so if there is the achievement of overtaking something with the same capability having made a classic duck & dive manoeuver. I can overtake 2cvs in my Renault Master, VW Touran or Camper, never felt much pleasure though.

Title: Re: 24hr press article
Post by: Bart van Wijngaarden on August 27, 2016, 09:26:54
Undoubtedly one of the attractions of faster C1s amongst UK 2cvs is their ability to overtake the 2cvs in anybody's hands, overtaking is sometimes fun but a lot more so if there is the achievement of overtaking something with the same capability having made a classic duck & dive manoeuver. I can overtake 2cvs in my Renault Master, VW Touran or Camper, never felt much pleasure though.
entirely off topic, but I met an A7 this week which didn't like me overtaking him, so he put his foot down. Met him again a couple of minutes later at the next traffic lights and I managed to pull away a good bit :o Then he had to overtake me and stay left at the next traffic lights, so I went right (this is on the european continent ;)). He was a bit brighter that time, but still I got 3 or 4m before he started moving and he couldn't make it back up before we got to 50/60kmh  ;D All that with only some 30hp, who needs a BMW bike engine? ;)