Classic 2CV Racing Club Ltd

Classic 2CV Racing Club Ltd Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: TomzZeH on September 04, 2016, 18:21:34



Title: Citroen C1
Post by: TomzZeH on September 04, 2016, 18:21:34
Hi there

i noticed a few Citroen C1's running in the Anglesey 24 hour race. I was just wondering what is the score with entering one? like what specification does the car need to be? any regs would be good :)

Thanks!


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Simon Crook on September 07, 2016, 06:56:10
Hi Tom sixty views and not one reply - probably get stoned for this; if you go scroll down the page on the link below you will see the regs for the C1 although I would check with someone before you build one as i believe this is very much still in the experimental stage at the moment, and not recognised as a championship.

http://www.barc.net/championships/2cv


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Martin Harrold on September 07, 2016, 07:43:59
The clue is in the logo at the top of the page.

This is the Classic 2CV Racing Club, and much effort is being put in by many Club members and friends of the Club to encourage more owners of race-prepared classic Citroen 2CV's, 602cc, to go racing in 2017.

We had good grids this year, but it's much more fun for all to be racing with bigger grids.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Simon Crook on September 07, 2016, 12:25:17
I wholly agree Martin with your statement, so thats a good enough reason not to answer Tom friendly club eh? - the C1 was allowed to race within our series 24hr Race and under the BARC Regulations for the Citroen 2cv Racing Club. and now I see a possible invite to Spa in a few weeks time too so who are they inviting the CLASSIC 2cv & C1 RACING CLUB (couldn't be arsed to RED it) - I still can't see how the BARC allowed them to race, but hey I am not sure how that works, they must have got the regulations approved by someone - Tom has seen them as part of this club otherwise he would not have asked the question surely? Someone is pushing these C1's, think it says somewhere on the forum that along with the UK C1s another 3 from other countries could be racing at Spa.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: naughtybear on September 07, 2016, 13:28:37
In response to simon.......I am friendly (ish) but did not know where to start in reply to the original post, all was a big shock to me.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Simon Crook on September 07, 2016, 20:43:16
Ash that you are, and I quite like to think that I am too  ::)


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Nick Roads on September 08, 2016, 08:17:20
Just to add a little to this. Those were the regulations for the UK race and those proposed for Spa. The aspiration, I am told, was to try and get a new class for endurance racing which will allow the club to be confident in grid sizes for the 24 Hour race which will then help subsidise and support the 2CV racing class. No intention to change the club name, sprints or the championship etc.

It will bring interest to the club we would not get otherwise - see this facebook post https://www.facebook.com/nick.paton.12/posts/10155101713642646?comment_id=10155101757852646&reply_comment_id=10155102965187646 (https://www.facebook.com/nick.paton.12/posts/10155101713642646?comment_id=10155101757852646&reply_comment_id=10155102965187646). 6500 views / 133 comments so far and counting...

The club can ask for any series it likes to be included with BARC - that is how the Minis and the Euros can race with us. The Mini grand (1000 cc) does not race in other race series. 



 









Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Trevor Williams on September 13, 2016, 18:36:38
If that clip is the one of the bloke at Nurburg, then I really liked his comments that 2CVs had become really expensive and really rare and difficult to set up. Where did he get fed that information. Also, loved his comments of "Its bog standard, but we are going to throw a Miltek exhaust on it an sort the suspension...." So starts an arms race for a non existant series / Championship...


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Steve Panas on September 13, 2016, 19:35:13
 ;D ;DNice to see you with an opinion!!!!!!!!


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: BertChalmers on September 29, 2016, 09:29:22
Hi Everybody,

I'm another random interested in the C1's

I work with one of the guys from Rentboys and to be honest me and a few friends are very interested in stepping up from Kart enduros to a C1 Enduro Class. If us sitting at the back of the grid help lower the costs and bring back More 2CVs  I can only see that as a good thing.


Depending on IF there is event to run in I'd happily build one or even two cars as I've got a lot of interest from Drivers I know.  

I'll be coming a long to the races in the early part of next year whether there is a C1 class or not just to introduce my self, meet people and get a feel for the series.

p.s. I hope I haven't upset anyone.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: wilbot on September 29, 2016, 14:05:40
Hello Bert

You've walked into a bit of a political mine field there. There are strong views in various directions about the C1's and perhaps a good way to encourage more 2CV's on the grid is buy/build one I don't see how racing a C1 is going to encourage more 2CV's ? to appear on the grid.
I can see the appeal but C1's are faster than 2CV's that's not going to encourage a guy who work's hard to put a more difficult car on the grid is it ?

Sorry to appear flat earth but that's how I see.

Colin W


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: BertChalmers on September 30, 2016, 08:56:32
Hi Colin,

I totally understand where you're coming from.

Sorry to show my lack of knowledge in the scene but is there a similarly patchy ffeeling about the minis or euro hybrids? I was under the impression that the C1s were going to be solely for the big Enduros and much like the minis and euros that would help reduce/amortise the cost of the event, bringing down the fee for genuine 2CV die-hards to get back on the grid

with regards to pace of the C1s, minis and Hybrids and the chance of a 2CV winning a 24hr overall maybe there need to be a BOP installed through either weight, fuel limits or timing to pull back the faster cars (although I'm guessing this might have already been suggested)



Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Lien93 on September 30, 2016, 16:36:24
Have you considered buying a 2cv race car. That way you can do all the sprint races, the UK 24hr race and take it to Spa with a 602 engine or a BMW engine! And you would be racing against a much bigger field of cars. Just saying....


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: naughtybear on September 30, 2016, 18:41:53
And I know where there are some for sale........ 8)


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Paul on September 30, 2016, 20:53:16
I might have a buyer for one Ash.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: wilbot on October 01, 2016, 06:25:56
Sorry Bert I don't think you understand where I'm coming from, Mini's & Euro hybrids have either history or 2CV in there DNA and are not modern derivatives like C1's.
Personally I'm building a BMW euro ( at my age I will never get near the front in sprint races ) the sprint races are and should remain for pure 602's.
I hope the club takes note that several members are building BMW/2CV euros and these are allowed in British Enduro events only through the front door. From all the chew that's gone on about C1's the back door is not the route.

Paul's handicap formula would be good place to start along with Snetterton and 40+ grids. Good competition and good economics.

Regards

CW


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: naughtybear on October 01, 2016, 08:25:03
Tell me more mr Paul


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Pete Sparrow on October 02, 2016, 07:16:44
Bert.
You are very Knowledgeable on the subject of the club. You must have done a lot of research.
It would be nice to see you at the AGM, you could come and see what goes on. You don't need to be a member come and watch.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: BertChalmers on October 02, 2016, 16:19:58
Hi All,

Thanks for the replies.  I'd like to come down to the AGM, it might be a way to meet you all in person - I'm not that good at getting my points across behind a keyboard. 

With regards to Why I'm planning to build C1s rather than a Euro or a 602. Its long winded.

In short;
I personally don't race anymore,
I currently run an endurance team that I want to expand from Karts into Cars
I have history with C1/107's
I'm Skint
I'm VERY lazy

This next comment is going to potentially get me into trouble.... here goes.  I love 2cvs, I used to be the commentry assistant at Knockhill over a decade ago and I used to love watching the Scottish series. But I never really had the desire to build one ( :o sorry, really sorry - please don't ban me). Whereas the people who I race with actually approached me about prepping a C1.  It may sound incredibly harsh and mercenary but I'm only interested in the Enduro because I normally get people on board for races by selling them on a £ per Arse-in-seat Minute basis and the sprints don't seem to offer the same value for money as the enduro when I'm approaching drivers.
Seeing how I'm not racing I'd like to be able to cover as much of the running cost as possible. At the moment, looking at the cost of Building a 2CV, buying a 2CV , Building a C1 or building any other car for an endurance series the C1 makes a lot more financial sense and having worked on them in the past it seems to be a no-brainer.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking to MAKE money off of this, I just want to enjoy the racing and prepping cars and not let it become a huge money pit (like my own racing career was!)





Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Roy Eastwood on October 03, 2016, 06:58:35
Clearly, you are in the wrong place, there must be a place for C1 et al racing, perhaps alongside such as Saxos, I hope you'll enjoy racing C1s and their Peugeot, Toyota cousins.

Hi All,

Thanks for the replies.  I'd like to come down to the AGM, it might be a way to meet you all in person - I'm not that good at getting my points across behind a keyboard. 

With regards to Why I'm planning to build C1s rather than a Euro or a 602. Its long winded.

In short;
I personally don't race anymore,
I currently run an endurance team that I want to expand from Karts into Cars
I have history with C1/107's
I'm Skint
I'm VERY lazy

This next comment is going to potentially get me into trouble.... here goes.  I love 2cvs, I used to be the commentry assistant at Knockhill over a decade ago and I used to love watching the Scottish series. But I never really had the desire to build one ( :o sorry, really sorry - please don't ban me). Whereas the people who I race with actually approached me about prepping a C1.  It may sound incredibly harsh and mercenary but I'm only interested in the Enduro because I normally get people on board for races by selling them on a £ per Arse-in-seat Minute basis and the sprints don't seem to offer the same value for money as the enduro when I'm approaching drivers.
Seeing how I'm not racing I'd like to be able to cover as much of the running cost as possible. At the moment, looking at the cost of Building a 2CV, buying a 2CV , Building a C1 or building any other car for an endurance series the C1 makes a lot more financial sense and having worked on them in the past it seems to be a no-brainer.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking to MAKE money off of this, I just want to enjoy the racing and prepping cars and not let it become a huge money pit (like my own racing career was!)






Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: BertChalmers on October 03, 2016, 08:59:52
Christ no! I'd bin the whole idea before I send a car out to share a track with the Saxo brigade, the rebuild cost would backrupt me! ;D ;D I'd much rather run in a series where people respect each other on track than where they're trying to emulate what they saw in the 'Kerbs launch careers' BTCC. 




Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Bart van Wijngaarden on October 03, 2016, 19:03:48
Hi Bert, you may consider starting a C1/107/Aygo racing club. From what I read it seems there are quite a few participants around, however watch out; there may be German dudes taking over  :D ;D ;) :-*


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: BertChalmers on October 17, 2016, 13:30:34
After another event racing with the C1s, have any opinions been changed?

p.s. the weekend looked amazing


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Trevor Williams on October 17, 2016, 17:15:21
Different event to the Classic 2CV Racing Club 24 Hour Race. And no, no place for them in the UK race....


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: wilbot on October 17, 2016, 18:31:47
Hi Bert. I had a birds eye view of 24 hours of C1 racing it was interesting to note that racing a 602 for24 hours means having a spare engine or 2 if you are unlucky. Racing a C1 means having a spare car or 2 to cannibalise ! no 12 minute swop there.

 It was sad to note that 602's don't merit a trophy for a class win - well done Rosie racing

On a more personal note my thanks to Ash and all the team for a cracking effort. 2 out of the first 3 cars Ash prepared without big bucks, can't be bad.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Maisie on October 17, 2016, 19:16:55
One of the Mission Motorsport guys told me their C1 cost £600. Which is of course for a scrap road car. Add in cost for cage, service parts, suspension, brakes, exhaust, any remapping/rolling road PLUS another road car for spares and a trailer to bring it on and someone to transport it. And then you fail scrutineering on roll cage prep, finally finish that only to have an electric fire extinguisher go off ad THEN have something go wrong with the immobiliser which means that while, before qually, all 2CV and even Mini teams are relaxing and having a bite of breakfast you're running around like headless chickens with Haynes manuals, laptops and random bits of electronics to swap out, only just getting it started in time for qually... not an ideal basis for cheap, practical endurance racing! Heard the car then bouncing off the limiter at Eau Rouge so needing an engine swap a mere 2.something hours into the race wasn't surprising. Road engines aren't designed to do that.
I'm sure they're ok racing cars in their own right but the idea of our 24hr race is that it should be within the average joe's financial and practical reach, should have an element of challenge rather than buying a modern car which should be able to run continuously for 24hrs without too much abuse, should involve a mix of good prep and fast but mechanically sympathetic driving as well as a combination of a great crew who have the ability to make a difference to the race outcome as well as a generous slice of luck.
So no, I don't think C1s should have a place in 2CV racing. I have no issues with Minis - similar costs, similar classic car appeal, similar tech and a similar mindset from guys who appreciate the value of racing cleanly and fairly and not giving yourself something expensive to fix. I don't think throwing the sums of money needed for a C1 only to potentially waste track time and money when something complicated fails is a sensible way to go endurance racing, especially when it risks diluting or devaluing the excellent, friendly, practical, affordable and FUN series we know, love and cherish.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Roy Eastwood on October 18, 2016, 08:09:04
Look out for a swift addition to C1 rules - allowing 'replacement car allowed if required'  ;D

Hi Bert. I had a birds eye view of 24 hours of C1 racing it was interesting to note that racing a 602 for24 hours means having a spare engine or 2 if you are unlucky. Racing a C1 means having a spare car or 2 to cannibalise ! no 12 minute swop there.

 It was sad to note that 602's don't merit a trophy for a class win - well done Rosie racing

On a more personal note my thanks to Ash and all the team for a cracking effort. 2 out of the first 3 cars Ash prepared without big bucks, can't be bad.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: BertChalmers on October 18, 2016, 12:07:00
Thank Maisie +Roy

I'm a little confused, it sounds like the Mission guys had the element of Challenge you mention! but I too think a bit of mechanical sympathy goes a long way in any 24hr race series be it Karts to Le Mans and I totally agree limiter-bouncing doesn't really seem the best thing to do!!

I'm personally looking to pre-cannoblise my spares car to save on shipping costs ;)

To be honest coming from 24hr karting, I'm looking forward to engines that cost £200 and a rebuild costing the same! (even if I have to spend an afternoon doing the rebuild). As a comparison, to buy the engines on just one of our three karts in the Brit24 in August you'd need to fork out £800


I would like to sit down with one of you (or via email) and see how much it cost to run a 2CV, engine rebuilds, consumables etc


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: PushToTalk on October 18, 2016, 12:34:14
Probably not an ideal first post but........

Firstly you can't look at Mission Motorsport for a gauge on how cheap the C1's are to run. Four of the six cars (that's 2 more than were competing in 602's) weren't even built a week and a half before Spa. It's no wonder than the prep/build on the MM car wasn't quite right, but they knuckled down and got it sorted in the end to compete. Yes one of the C1's did blow an engine early on Friday, but that was because the driver ignored the big red light telling him the car was overheating for three laps, so they had to change an engine. I also spoke to the guys about the costs of building them and the price started at £2400 if you bought a £600 car and £3k is you bought a half decent one to start with. An engine rebuild was about £500 and they are designed to do a lot of mileage for that and not have to be rebuilt after every 24hr race. That makes them a lot cheaper to build and run than a 602 and more reliable too.

We had a hoot racing #32 that we rented from Ash, but we are also seriously talking about building our own cars for next time and a few C1's would work out at a max of 9k. Maisie's logic/argument for C1s not having a place in 2CV racing for financial reasons, don't make sense. I do however understand the reasons for not wanting the C1 class to dilute the 602's, which could change the ethos of the club , but with the price of the classics getting higher all the time and and the same with the price of spares and engine builds, i think it's inevitable.

Anyway, thanks for letting us race with you, we really enjoyed it

Duncan


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: marc n on October 18, 2016, 13:05:17
Quote
One of the Mission Motorsport guys told me their C1 cost £600. Which is of course for a scrap road car. Add in cost for cage, service parts, suspension, brakes, exhaust, any remapping/rolling road PLUS another road car for spares and a trailer to bring it on and someone to transport it. And then you fail scrutineering on roll cage prep, finally finish that only to have an electric fire extinguisher go off ad THEN have something go wrong with the immobiliser which means that while, before qually, all 2CV and even Mini teams are relaxing and having a bite of breakfast you're running around like headless chickens with Haynes manuals, laptops and random bits of electronics to swap out, only just getting it started in time for qually... not an ideal basis for cheap, practical endurance racing! Heard the car then bouncing off the limiter at Eau Rouge so needing an engine swap a mere 2.something hours into the race wasn't surprising. Road engines aren't designed to do that.
I'm sure they're ok racing cars in their own right but the idea of our 24hr race is that it should be within the average joe's financial and practical reach, should have an element of challenge rather than buying a modern car which should be able to run continuously for 24hrs without too much abuse, should involve a mix of good prep and fast but mechanically sympathetic driving as well as a combination of a great crew who have the ability to make a difference to the race outcome as well as a generous slice of luck.
So no, I don't think C1s should have a place in 2CV racing. I have no issues with Minis - similar costs, similar classic car appeal, similar tech and a similar mindset from guys who appreciate the value of racing cleanly and fairly and not giving yourself something expensive to fix. I don't think throwing the sums of money needed for a C1 only to potentially waste track time and money when something complicated fails is a sensible way to go endurance racing, especially when it risks diluting or devaluing the excellent, friendly, practical, affordable and FUN series we know, love and cherish.


Not been around for a bit or raced the 2cv due to workloads but attended this years spa 24hr race to help try and keep our car running  ;D

Was watching with great interest how the c1s got on.

My observations :-
The cars look great
Like the cost side of them as opposed to the ever rising costs of 2cv racing
Mission motorsport had only built the cars just before the race so where not really prepared, aside from the scruiteneering issues / accident damage they suffered an engine failure and a head gasket failure...... that was it !!!!.they had engines straight from a road car as opposed to a race built engine like the 2cv so hardly suprising ,  as from having trawled the internet most cars of that era have done anything from 60000 miles to 140000 miles so hardly suprising that after a few hours of flat out they failed . In our garage there where 4 engine changes 8 jetting changes , gearbox change , to try and do quick times, all of our engines where properly built engines.

Our car is looking in a very sorry state bodywise and is going to cost an awfull lot of money in panels / shell repair , as the parts are not in abundance for 2cvs as most people now are restoring them rather than thrashing round a track.

So as well as our existing 2cv car we are building 2 x c1s, and i know of another 2 people who wish to do the same.

My calculated costs so far based on me sucessfully winning a bid on copart:-

Donor car £250-£350 co-part damaged repairable
Repair panels for above car £185
Cage £300-£400
fire extinguisher kit £139.89
seat fia approved £260
billet bottom arms  £ 150
engine reconditioned been quoted £450 ( depends on initial condition )

so in parts £1535 or say £2000 tops

There are 2cv engines out there that cost that much alone !!!!


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: BertChalmers on October 18, 2016, 13:29:10
Love CoPart
if you miss out try ASM aswell! (auctions.asm-autos.co.uk)



Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Maisie on October 18, 2016, 13:49:22
Just to address the "rising costs of 2CV racing bit":

- Our race car cost £1000. It involved a trip to Ireland to collect and a lot of panel work and fettling to fix crash damage, borrow shocks (it came with 3) and get some Belgian arms made up but was out racing competitively at Oulton Park 13 days later. Yes, there are expensive race cars for sale (but don't tell me you can buy race cars for many other series for less than a couple of grand) but with a bit of research there are plenty out there that could be got back on track as projects with very little outlay in terms of time or money.
- We have a road car (as yet untouched) which cost £200. We were buying some stuff from a chap from Ebay and since he was emigrating and needed to get rid of everything he took a very low offer for the whole car sitting in his driveway. So there are some out there which aren't expensive to use as donors for shell, engine, suspension etc or even to build into a race car.
- Engines: somewhat specialised, and yes things like getting the jetting right can be a pain, especially on a long circuit with varying characteristics and wildly changing temperatures. But that's what you get with old non-electronic tech. It's always been part of the challenge of getting a 2CV to run right. But you can learn to build and work on them yourselves and from my experience people who build engines aren't stingy with offering help and advice. You don't need to spend thousands on building or buying an engine.

"we are also seriously talking about building our own cars for next time and a few C1's would work out at a max of 9k" - see above. Could buy 9 Blueberry Muffins for that!
"An engine rebuild was about £500 and they are designed to do a lot of mileage for that and not have to be rebuilt after every 24hr race. That makes them a lot cheaper to build and run than a 602 and more reliable too."
Engine rebuild can easily be less than that and even factoring in taking a second hand engine and buying new pistons, rings, barrels and a club cam you're probably not looking at much more. And I don't see how an engine service for a C1 is that much different to checking over your 2CV engine if you've been kind to it and giving that some service items after a 24hr race. For every "we went through 4 engines" there are multiple examples of teams who've run a faultless race, engine-wise.

"aside from the scruiteneering issues / accident damage they suffered an engine failure and a head gasket failure...... that was it"
Yes, but that "it" takes HOURS out of your track time and instantly renders any chance of a competitive finish out of the question. Rosie Racing did the whole race on one engine and even with a sizeable crash towards the end the car finished first of the UK spec 2CVs. Even with an engine failure it's still possible to win a 24hr race in a 2CV.

I think my main point is that people enter a 2CV 24 HOUR race to race A 2CV. For 24 HOURS. They don't want to go and buy something modern because it's cheaper, or easier. It's not a 2CV for a start!
It's accepted that you're going to have to put some time and money into building a car up (but there is no motorsport that is cheap and any racing car needs some good prep). If you just go and buy some knackered scrap modern car is almost smacks of cheating, that you want to do it the easy way. Endurance motorsport SHOULDN'T be "easy". There should be some challenge involved. That's what makes it to satisfying when you do well, even if it takes years of trying before you get the perfect combination of prep, performance and luck. You accept that there may be bodywork damage, or suspension issues, or even an engine failure, but you also know that there is almost nothing that will actually take you out of the race for good.
I've been spares coordinator for a classic car owners club for 15 years and believe me, we would have killed to have the number of bespoke suppliers that 2CVs or even the likes of Minis have. You can buy pretty much everything off the shelf and honestly, the parts aren't that expensive.

It irks me that people keep peddling the "2CVs are expensive, unreliable and hard to source parts for" line. THEY ARE NOT. Or at least they don't have to be. There will always be people who are willing and able to throw stupid amounts of money at any series to gain an advantage. But equally there is plenty of scope for someone with a little resourcefulness to compete perfectly well on a modest budget. I think instead of looking to the future and thinking "let's get rid of all this creaky old chod and go for a nice easy runabout instead" we should be looking at making a 2CV an attractive prospect and being a lot more open with information on costs, where to buy parts, how to work on the cars and encouraging new competitors to buy into the concept of racing our quirky-but-ideal-for-taking-anything-you-can-throw-at-them cars.

Replacing 2CVs IS NOT INEVITABLE. It SHOULD NOT BE INEVITABLE. I've lost count of the number of times I've said this: there are multiple places like Hot Hatch you can go and race a C1 (yes, I appreciate that that championship has a not-entirely-undeserved reputation for being expensive bumper cars). Or start your own. There is ONE. I repeat: ONE place you can race a 2CV. And there are plenty of people who DO want to race a 2CV and who do not exactly relish being told that their cars are rubbish and doomed to being phased out and seeing on the horizon what looks like a horde of people telling them it's time they stopped standing in the way of progress and let their championship die a dignified death.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Maisie on October 18, 2016, 14:03:44
To add to the above essay (sorry!), look at the Minis. The Mighty Mini championship is very much like ours. People choose to race Minis because they want to race a Mini. They want close, relatively cheap racing, but I dare say second hand Minis aren't getting any cheaper although there are plenty of specialist suppliers out there and parts are still OK to come by. If anything their bodywork will be more expensive because they are more a one-piece shell with welded on parts and not as dismantlable as a 2CV. Engines are similarly easy to work on if you have a bit of practical ability, but there are also the likes of Slark who are a go-to builder if you can't do it yourself. And a Slark engine won't be cheap. Neither Mini nor 2CV engine builders run as a charity. Whatever form of motorsport you take part in, it's just what you have to accept.

They don't have the associated difficulties of trying to run a 24hr race as part of their championship and so don't have the unique issues that we do in terms of grid numbers (which haven't actually been that bad for the sprint series). There are far more issues such as time of year (with people having holidays booked), track location, finding enough team members etc that stop cars coming out and these are the issues we need to address in order to augment rather than replace our grid of 2CVs.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: BertChalmers on October 18, 2016, 14:06:55
Hi Maisie,

Sorry if you felt my responce was effectively telling you to abndon all hope, and that the 2cv was doomed to become every more expensive. Thats not what I intended.

Put simply I want to find the cheapest 24hr series with the best atmosphere that I can enter a modern reliable car (I'd like to think my prep is pretty decent) and that lets us enjoy track time with similar paced cars without having to constant worry about stuff like jetting when we've got enough to learn as it is. If the cars are also easy to work on when stuff goes fruit shaped - then that would be perfect.

To me, that's what the C1s are, not a replacement for 2CVs but simply a feeder series into 24hr 'full size' racing for teams like mine that have outgrown other elements of the sport. If we get to share the operating costs event surely that makes your annual budget a bit easier too.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: PushToTalk on October 18, 2016, 14:10:18
Just to address the "rising costs of 2CV racing bit":

I think my main point is that people enter a 2CV 24 HOUR race to race A 2CV. For 24 HOURS. They don't want to go and buy something modern because it's cheaper, or easier. It's not a 2CV for a start!


I want to do another 24hr race and i'd enter the 2CV race to race a C1.  I wouldn't buy a 2CV to do it in.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Maisie on October 18, 2016, 14:29:38
Just to address the "rising costs of 2CV racing bit":

I think my main point is that people enter a 2CV 24 HOUR race to race A 2CV. For 24 HOURS. They don't want to go and buy something modern because it's cheaper, or easier. It's not a 2CV for a start!


I want to do another 24hr race and i'd enter the 2CV race to race a C1.  I wouldn't buy a 2CV to do it in.

Then we want to know why. Why not hire one? And if you want to enter the 2CV 24hr race in something other than a 2CV race then sorry if it sounds harsh, but if it means diluting the 2CV grids and marginalising the people who do actually want to race a 2CV and not be overlooked in the results when the timesheets have C1s taking the top places, then maybe you're not welcome.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Maisie on October 18, 2016, 14:32:32
Hi Maisie,

Sorry if you felt my responce was effectively telling you to abndon all hope, and that the 2cv was doomed to become every more expensive. Thats not what I intended.

Put simply I want to find the cheapest 24hr series with the best atmosphere that I can enter a modern reliable car (I'd like to think my prep is pretty decent) and that lets us enjoy track time with similar paced cars without having to constant worry about stuff like jetting when we've got enough to learn as it is. If the cars are also easy to work on when stuff goes fruit shaped - then that would be perfect.

To me, that's what the C1s are, not a replacement for 2CVs but simply a feeder series into 24hr 'full size' racing for teams like mine that have outgrown other elements of the sport. If we get to share the operating costs event surely that makes your annual budget a bit easier too.

Yes, but the issue seems to be lots of people want to have a nice easy 24hr race, which I can see the attraction of. The problem is that 24hr races are a) rare, b) generally extremely expensive. And people have found our race and our championship and want to piggy back on it. The issue with that is that while sharing the costs is all well and good there's a very real threat that having 15 2CVs and suddenly 25 C1s kills off what we've been happily, and successfully, doing for over 25 years.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: PushToTalk on October 18, 2016, 14:51:44
Then we want to know why. Why not hire one? And if you want to enter the 2CV 24hr race in something other than a 2CV race then sorry if it sounds harsh, but if it means diluting the 2CV grids and marginalising the people who do actually want to race a 2CV and not be overlooked in the results when the timesheets have C1s taking the top places, then maybe you're not welcome.

lol why do series forums always attract such keyboard warriors. Not being welcome is fine by me, but maybe it's that kind of attitude that has caused your grids for the 24hr races to dwindle. Was it 16 cars at Anglesey and 4 at Spa this year.

C1's if you are kind enough to allow them to race in the 24hr's next year, will probably attract triple the entries of the 602 at the rate it's growing, which will of course help subsidise your racing. The sprint series does well enough, but you need to look at why only a handful of die hards choose to do the endurance events, i bet most of it is down to cost. Spa was my first experience of the 2CV Racing club and everyone was so friendly, helpful and open to all types of racing, i obviously didn't meet yourself.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: BertChalmers on October 18, 2016, 14:59:01
Sorry, this may soon a bit out of place but; if its been sucessfully done for 25 year why do you need the minis, hybrids and C1s? Surely if it was truly successful you'd still have a full grid of 2cvs and only 2cvs?

(Prepared to receive the Ban-hammer for that one)

In the medium to short term while everyone promotes 2cv racing and the challenges involved in it and tries bring more people in, get more cars out of garages and back on the grid, I think you might need to view C1s as a 'necessary evil'  (I mean its not like I'm asking you to accept an Aygo!!) so that there is a year 26 and a year 27  and so on


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Maisie on October 18, 2016, 15:11:06
Then we want to know why. Why not hire one? And if you want to enter the 2CV 24hr race in something other than a 2CV race then sorry if it sounds harsh, but if it means diluting the 2CV grids and marginalising the people who do actually want to race a 2CV and not be overlooked in the results when the timesheets have C1s taking the top places, then maybe you're not welcome.

lol why do series forums always attract such keyboard warriors. Not being welcome is fine by me, but maybe it's that kind of attitude that has caused your grids for the 24hr races to dwindle. Was it 16 cars at Anglesey and 4 at Spa this year.

OK, so maybe my words were a little harsh, but indicate the depth of feeling. And you would have seen me around the garage even if I didn't speak to you, and I like to think I'm generally fairly friendly. The "you" wasn't necessarily aimed at you personally. This year's Anglesey race had unique factors which didn't help grid sizes. Circuit choice, date, late organisation and particularly unfavourable start and finish times put a lot of people off. You can't really scoff at 4 cars at Spa given that it's not part of the championship and takes a lot more time, money and effort to get to than our own race.

Quote
C1's if you are kind enough to allow them to race in the 24hr's next year, will probably attract triple the entries of the 602 at the rate it's growing, which will of course help subsidise your racing.

Not disputing that, but you must see that it runs the risk of the 602 then becoming the non-dominant category which will do the attractiveness of racing one no future good whatsoever.

Quote
The sprint series does well enough, but you need to look at why only a handful of die hards choose to do the endurance events, i bet most of it is down to cost. Spa was my first experience of the 2CV Racing club and everyone was so friendly, helpful and open to all types of racing, i obviously didn't meet yourself.

As I said above, it's not just cost that's the factor, which you of course can't know if you haven't been involved before. And I'm happy that you got a taste of why people DO love 2CV racing - because people are so friendly and welcoming. And we want that to continue.

This is how I see it;
- People want to race for 24hrs.
- People want to race cheaply, and they want a car that pretty much runs itself.
- There are very few 24hr races available worldwide, let alone in the UK.
- Those 24hr races that are available, eg Britcar, are very much more expensive and for generally speaking fairly high-tech machinery with associated complications and costs.

So if you want to race in the Citroen 2CV 24hr race, it would be nice if you supported the organising club by actually racing a 2CV. If there are sufficient numbers wanting to race cheap modern road cars then, if we can organise a 24hr race for our relatively small numbers of quirky old cars, surely there's scope for a separate race for modern machinery instead of piggy-backing on ours and potentially swamping it.




Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Maisie on October 18, 2016, 15:14:18
Sorry, this may soon a bit out of place but; if its been sucessfully done for 25 year why do you need the minis, hybrids and C1s? Surely if it was truly successful you'd still have a full grid of 2cvs and only 2cvs?

(Prepared to receive the Ban-hammer for that one)

It's a very good point, and you have every right to point it out. As I've said in my previous post, this year was a particularly low point for various reasons, but we're working on better things for next year. Minis at least have classic appeal, similar tech level and similar performance and haven't entered in huge numbers. The C1 was a last-minute decision when things were looking a lot bleaker than they actually ended up being.

Quote
In the medium to short term while everyone promotes 2cv racing and the challenges involved in it and tries bring more people in, get more cars out of garages and back on the grid, I think you might need to view C1s as a 'necessary evil'  (I mean its not like I'm asking you to accept an Aygo!!) so that there is a year 26 and a year 27  and so on

See above. It was a necessary evil for this year, but what we don't want is for it to open the floodgates for lots of cars which then outnumber and render our own obsolete.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Nick Roads on October 18, 2016, 15:22:59
comments seem fair and balanced to me for what its worth so far! Big grids is a worthy ambition.

I think Rosie Racing car only used one engine in both of the last years. My car only had a carb fire on my car which necessitated an engine change when it ran in the Club class for 3 years so agree with Maisie it does not have to be expensive to race a 2CV. The classiques are very reliable - its the tuning and fettling that adds to the costs for all the other series.

On the question of cost then in the UK 2CV hybrids we have not had one BMW engine fail in any car and have now clocked up well over 250 hours of track time. All 4 cars finished in top 30 - see attached for results. Car 40 ran an engine that came off ebay for £ 50 for the whole of the race and testing. My car had 1 gearbox failure last year but none of the cars had a gearbox failure this year. We are all running 2cv/dyane original gears and housings with careful preparation by Rick Pembro.

2 flywheels failed after having been raced last year on each of the Crisis cars in testing this year but they were too lightened we feel and had been used with 602 engines for over 5 years. Now running and would recommend non slotted lightened flywheels. Car 36 engine not only survived the bell housing cracking and flywheel failure it was the only engine the car has had so has now done 2 x 24 , 1 x 6 hour races and testing / qualifying hours without any problems.

We are working through other issues having run the hybrids in UK class cars but none of them seem too expensive to fix chatting them through coming home - 3 fuel caps vibrated off 3 of the cars, 2 wheels failed on mine, Gadget needs a few bolts replaced, there were a few crashes so cosmetic repairs but all 4 cars finished in a state they can be driven away without requiring significant expense to compete next year and were all in the top 30 of the original 73. The exhausts (4 different types tried this year) and drive shafts all survived much better than in 2015 so we have made a lot of progress.

It has not been as easy as it might have been and certainly takes more time to convert than initially intended but Car 36 has demonstrated that you can go 602->BMW->602->BMW and will be back as 602 next year without difficulty. Its the initial work that is time consuming but then all race preparation is like that.  

Caryl and Pete can sell kits to convert a standard UK class to a Hybrid. I would estimate it cost £ 3000 to convert my car as I wanted to get as reliable parts as I could so engines cost £ 700 (I have 2) and 2 gearbox conversions take up a lot of the budget. This included getting some help to actually put it all in. It cost less than £ 1000 for the various changes/ upgrades for this year on my car and next year will be considerably less, assuming I simply need a new housing for the gearbox housing the flywheel destroyed and I will then have 2 of every hybrid part. Car 40 was converted at a much lower cost and Paul will no doubt help advise anyone on how he did it. The Club class car must be in good condition alongside the conversion for all its suspension parts and arms etc for safety and reliability so not suggesting anyone bought a roadcar, fitted a kit and took it endurance racing which seems to be part of the attraction for the C1 and as noted in this thread is an impressive outcome for them. It would be interesting to hear from Mission as to why they did not continue with the Club class 2CV but decided to invest all that money in a C1 given they did race a club class 2CV at Spa a few years ago and believe they have one in a garage somewhere.

The UK hybrid goes round faster than a C1 despite being on standard club class tyres and running air restrictors (30%) and thus could go quicker if required in future years at very little extra cost.  Another reason to go to UK hybrid for me was I like racing at Spa and the Euros are a lot quicker than Club class and that can be quite challenging and frustrating as a result.

It is also far from clear as to whether the C1 can race next year at either 24 hour race as will need approval by the organisers of each race. Entry costs may vary considerably as well from this year as both series were accepting C1's a a trial. Similar issue for the UK Hybrid but 2CVRT will obviously prefer a UK hybrid to a C1 as its much closer to a 2CV and that is what brings in the spectators and is closer to their history.



Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Simon Crook on October 18, 2016, 15:34:46
With so much talk about the C1s both on here and over the weekend at SPA - After a very long time out of racing I ended up choosing to join the Classic 2cv Racing Club  the main for me was, I wanted to race in a one make series that was/is fun to race, also that I a relative novice (compared to some) could work on the car which is simple to maintain, easy to get parts for - yes easy to get parts for, apart from still finding them cheaply we have one of our title sponsors ECAS along with other suppliers doing a great job still getting these new parts, I never have once struggled to get parts. A well built race engine yes can cost upwards of £1500.00, We have never been one of the fastest cars out on the grid (except when Pete Sparrow drove it at Mallory) we have always had a smartly turned out car (lots of people have said it) in fact - Push to talk you where in it over the weekend at SPA - I really don't care what the C1's do to be honest, I hope they grow to a great one make series, I like many within the club do not think they have a place within the Classic 2cv Racing Club, our 24hr race along with our club is special, its been running a long time now which says something about its members both old and new, I have only been involved with the club since 2009 and in that time I have seen some people move on/retire along with new racers coming along, like me I am sure by being attracted to racing a 2CV. Team Lumaca Racing #58 are currently building a new 2cv for next season and will carry on supporting the club wherever I/we can.

Simon    


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Louis on October 18, 2016, 16:20:27



I would like to sit down with one of you (or via email) and see how much it cost to run a 2CV, engine rebuilds, consumables etc

Costa? I'm back in on Friday..


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: BertChalmers on October 18, 2016, 19:28:31
Busy friday, Monday?


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Derek Coghill on October 18, 2016, 21:04:48
"There are 2cv engines out there that cost that much alone"

I was offered an engine and gearbox from a road car for £150 recently I thought that was a bit steep, but then again I don't need the gearbox.

New panels are available from ECAS for pretty much every part of the 2CV; if your preparation's good and you remember that it's a non-contact sport, then you'll get plenty of time out of them.

Likewise engine parts; everything's available. I spent quite a while with fairly lightly-modified engines in the hotly-contested race not to be last, but once you do get into building them more carefully it's quite fun.

After almost 20 years of doing this, I've just won my first trophy for finishing well (karting excepted).

Anyway, the older equivalent is probably the Austin 7 and they're still going strong.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: BertChalmers on October 18, 2016, 21:16:11
Once out of the car (granted more difficult in a C1) the 1kr is an incredibly simple engine. Earlier the 2cv engine was likened to the mini's A series. well the even though its fuel injected and has basic variable valve timing, they actually bolt together easier than longbridge's finest!

Controversial statement:
The C1 is the spiritual successor to the 2CV in terms of its design ethos... Simple transport for the masses, function over form yet its function begets it's form.... 


(lobs hand granade and runs)


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Chris Yates on October 18, 2016, 21:44:39
Many have claimed to be the successor to the 2cv.

Point is, we can still get parts and can still race 2cvs. So we don't need successors, thanks.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Trevor Williams on October 18, 2016, 21:53:33
If you want to race a modern car, which C1 is, please do so, just not in the Classic 2CV Racing Club championship race.
I'm sure Creventic will welcome you.....


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Martin Harrold on October 18, 2016, 21:59:42
Always remember. The clue is in the Club name - the Classic 2CV Racing Club. There are loads of other motor racing clubs, series and championships. This one happens to be for people who want to enjoy preparing and racing the quirky and iconic Citroen 2CV 602cc. If anyone wants to race something else, then that's fine, just go off and do it.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Louis on October 19, 2016, 05:10:56
Busy friday, Monday?

Out again Monday, but about thereafter as it stands.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: indigorallye on October 19, 2016, 08:21:30
I've just read the article on Bridge to Gantry, regarding the C1 at Spa, and I thought I'd do a little research into it.
Unfortunately I ended up on this thread!
I'm surprised at the hostility towards the idea if I'm honest.
I've been looking at the entry lists:
22 cars at Brands Hatch
20 at Cadwell Park
18 at Oulton Park
I think there is enough room for 'another class.'
I'm not sure how that would dilute 2CV entries.

It seems that the 2CV fans are die hard, and good on you. A C1 racer is probably a different animal to a 2CV racer, as the history is not relevant to them.
But I think it is blinkered to think that you can maintain grid sizes as the cars get older, and more valuable.
I would see the C1 as a support to your racing, not a replacement.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Chris Yates on October 19, 2016, 08:37:49
I think there is enough room for 'another class.'
I'm not sure how that would dilute 2CV entries.

Whenever you add a faster class to a competitive championship, it invariably takes competitors away from the slower classes. This has been demonstrated time and time again in other championships. Basically, competitive people like to be at the top of the timing sheets, not the bottom!

Our club has tried to introduce an 'Eco class', in which many of the modifications that were viewed as being expensive were removed - standard flywheels, original carb, standard cam - and entry fees were discounted. But despite being cheaper to enter and run the cars, take-up on this has been very minimal. Only one or two cars have entered the class. A strong reason for this is that the cars are much slower, and therefore people don't want to enter when there's pretty much no chance they can win.

If we allow more faster cars into our racing, it basically sends out the message that you can't compete until you get the newer, faster car. That isn't what our racing is, or should be about.

If we were to allow the C1, it would have to be on the proviso that it would need to be SLOWER than a 2cv. Would you still all want to join in then?


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: BertChalmers on October 19, 2016, 09:18:42
I think there is enough room for 'another class.'
I'm not sure how that would dilute 2CV entries.

Whenever you add a faster class to a competitive championship, it invariably takes competitors away from the slower classes. This has been demonstrated time and time again in other championships. Basically, competitive people like to be at the top of the timing sheets, not the bottom!

Our club has tried to introduce an 'Eco class', in which many of the modifications that were viewed as being expensive were removed - standard flywheels, original carb, standard cam - and entry fees were discounted. But despite being cheaper to enter and run the cars, take-up on this has been very minimal. Only one or two cars have entered the class. A strong reason for this is that the cars are much slower, and therefore people don't want to enter when there's pretty much no chance they can win.

If we allow more faster cars into our racing, it basically sends out the message that you can't compete until you get the newer, faster car. That isn't what our racing is, or should be about.

If we were to allow the C1, it would have to be on the proviso that it would need to be SLOWER than a 2cv. Would you still all want to join in then?

As the outsider here can I make yet another controversial statement?

As mentioned above the club has:
* introduced the Eco Class to help reduce the cost of 2CV racing and help level the playing field,
* you've discounted entry fees for the Eco Class to help bring people in
* Allowed the bmw engines, to get rid of the stigma that the original engines may be awkward to get dialled in for the novice
*many many other things

and still this year alone the entry lists seems to be going down:

22 cars at Brands Hatch
20 at Cadwell Park
18 at Oulton Park
I think there is enough room for 'another class.'
I'm not sure how that would dilute 2CV entries.


Everything you've done so far is aimed at those already IN the 2CV fraternity. The things is outside the die hard fans I think there are fewer and fewer people who want to race 2CVs.
Nobody outside of 2CVs know how much the tuning parts banned from the ECO class cost relative to the allowed ones, No-one outside knows that carbing a 2CV lump is a knack to be learned and why a BMW engine is a better/easier to live with otpion. Your target audience seems to be:

1. 2cv enthusiasts (sadly a reducing group due to fewer and fewer being on the road)
2. 2cv enthusiasts who want to race a 2cv (a pretty thin tip of an already narrowing wedge)
3. people looking for cheap racing
 
I am your target audience for getting more cars on the grid. I have a budget, not a vast one, I want to go racing. I want to get as much racing out of my money as I can. I love 2cvs and I love watching 2cv racing.

Now take into account that I have the modern sensibility of an incredibly short attention span - like a lot of the potential audience who COULD put a 2cv back on the grid.  Compare the C1 regs with those of the 2CVs. How much knowledge of the history of the 2CV and variants is required and how much research you have to do (WTF are Pembro gearboxes? or Belgian arms??). I love watching 2CVs and 2CV racing and I more than have the technical ability to build one and run one....  but I wouldn't

I love the die-hard 2CV loyalists and their passion, but C1s are not here to take over. If you want to race a 602, you'll race a 602, if being at the sharp end was a major concern you'd be in a euro hybrid by now or a different series all together.




Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Roy Eastwood on October 19, 2016, 09:24:26
The need to keep the UK BMW powered 2cv cars down to 602cc speed should also be considered (if they become permitted) - otherwise we'll just have slow 2cvs and fast 2cvs - the winner will always be the faster BMW powered - unless the club introduces unwritten, unsporting BTCC regs on blocking and bashing  :(

I think there is enough room for 'another class.'
I'm not sure how that would dilute 2CV entries.

Whenever you add a faster class to a competitive championship, it invariably takes competitors away from the slower classes. This has been demonstrated time and time again in other championships. Basically, competitive people like to be at the top of the timing sheets, not the bottom!

Our club has tried to introduce an 'Eco class', in which many of the modifications that were viewed as being expensive were removed - standard flywheels, original carb, standard cam - and entry fees were discounted. But despite being cheaper to enter and run the cars, take-up on this has been very minimal. Only one or two cars have entered the class. A strong reason for this is that the cars are much slower, and therefore people don't want to enter when there's pretty much no chance they can win.

If we allow more faster cars into our racing, it basically sends out the message that you can't compete until you get the newer, faster car. That isn't what our racing is, or should be about.

If we were to allow the C1, it would have to be on the proviso that it would need to be SLOWER than a 2cv. Would you still all want to join in then?


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Chris Yates on October 19, 2016, 09:39:06
Everything you've done so far is aimed at those already IN the 2CV fraternity. The things is outside the die hard fans I think there are fewer and fewer people who want to race 2CVs.

You'd think there'd be fewer and fewer people who want to race Austin A35s. Yet there is suddenly a whole grid full of people who want to do so at Goodwood and other places. There's bugger all of them left, they're slow (ish) and they cost a fortune, yet they're described as FUN. Racing a 2CV is also FUN.

Would you go to Lord March or Julius Thurgood and tell them: "now look here, your cars are slow, expensive and difficult to maintain. Why don't we bring a load of C1s in and we can race those at your Goodwood Revival?"

Sound ridiculous? That's basically what you're suggesting to us. We have an event which is unique and we want to retain that uniqueness, and we don't want to be pushed out by a load of faster cars.

1. 2cv enthusiasts (sadly a reducing group due to fewer and fewer being on the road)
2. 2cv enthusiasts who want to race a 2cv (a pretty thin tip of an already narrowing wedge)
3. people looking for cheap racing

Absolutely fine with us. If people want to do a cheap 24hr race, then they can come to us and RACE A 2CV. If people want to do cheap sprint racing then their options are more varied, but you can do 2CV racing on a shoestring budget, and many have.

I am your target audience for getting more cars on the grid. I have a budget, not a vast one, I want to go racing. I want to get as much racing out of my money as I can. I love 2cvs and I love watching 2cv racing.

Good. I know of a couple of 2CVs for sale. Sounds like you're a perfect match. Ask someone who knows enough about 2CVs to help you.

I love watching 2CVs and 2CV racing and I more than have the technical ability to build one and run one....  but I wouldn't


You still haven't answered my question - would you race a C1 if it HAD to be SLOWER than a 2CV?



Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: indigorallye on October 19, 2016, 10:00:14
Yes. I would.
There is always the option of BoP.
This could be in the form of weight, minimum pit stop time, or reduced allowance on fuel stops.

At the end of the day, it's a 2CV club, not a Citroen club so it's up to the committee and members.

FWIW, even as a seperate entity I think that the basic idea has potential.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: BertChalmers on October 19, 2016, 10:07:37
The A35's have a full grid, and its expanding LM even mentioned they might have to put on a qualification race for them! and more are being built under Appendix K - its a rather different situation to what we find our selves in with 2CVs and its a rather different target a no I would not ask LM, but  I bet he wouldn't want Hybrids either.

And Yes, if all the C1s were the same speed and slower than the 2CVs Yes I totally would still build and race them.

Here's a point to consider. lets flip the conversation:
IF the 2CVs ran Club mandated parts, without the need for 36 pages regs cover the use of Ami 8/Super parts, this flywheel over that, and were FASTER...  do you think more people could be interested in racing them?

at the moment (from what I can see) you're trying to level a field of already slow cars (relatively)  by mandating parts that make them even slower and only slightly Cheaper.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: naughtybear on October 19, 2016, 10:41:25
I had zero 2cv knowledge when I built my Eco car and it beat club cars!! All this about hard to build, setup is just now nonsense


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Chris Yates on October 19, 2016, 11:43:10
The A35's have a full grid, and its expanding LM even mentioned they might have to put on a qualification race for them! and more are being built under Appendix K - its a rather different situation to what we find our selves in with 2CVs and its a rather different target a no I would not ask LM, but  I bet he wouldn't want Hybrids either.

Might be a different target audience, but they have a unique event, and they have built a close, competitive field of cars to race in that event, and wouldn't want a bunch of newer cars coming in and taking attention away from them. Which is the situation we find ourselves in.

Yes, the C1s were invited this year because grid numbers were looking worryingly thin *at the time*, but thanks to people encouraging competitors to bring out 2CVs, the club could have run the 24hrs without C1s and still made a small profit. I expect this situation to be better next year.

I expect if C1s are invited, then it might even discourage 2CVs entering. I've heard this from several 2CV racers already. For a club that is called "The 2CV Racing Club", then this is not what we want.

IF the 2CVs ran Club mandated parts, without the need for 36 pages regs cover the use of Ami 8/Super parts, this flywheel over that, and were FASTER...  do you think more people could be interested in racing them?

Possibly. But it would probably be at the expense of those competitors who want to compete on a budget.

at the moment (from what I can see) you're trying to level a field of already slow cars (relatively)  by mandating parts that make them even slower and only slightly Cheaper.

You are incorrect. Some of the mandated parts are to level the playing field, but actually make the cars quicker. Some were introduced because of a concern over parts availabilty and arguably make the cars slightly quicker. None of those I can think of are any cheaper than standard 2CV parts.

Bottom line: You can build a C1 racer and you can race it elsewhere. There are clubs and series where it can race competitively against similar modern cars. We CANNOT race our cars anywhere else. Nor do we want to. So instead of trying to effectively take over our 24hour race, why not go away and start your own race series and earn your own 24hour race, like we had to originally, instead of trying to bully your way into someone else's championship.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: indigorallye on October 19, 2016, 12:06:45
Hahahaha.
Don't blame us 'outsiders' for this!
I think it's YOUR club that has created this market, not C1 owners with no where to race.
I will continue to monitor the progress of any series/ championship.
Thank you.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: naughtybear on October 19, 2016, 12:27:08
All dressed up and nowhere to go ha ha


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: indigorallye on October 19, 2016, 12:36:02
Who? Me?
I've not got a C1, or a 2CV.
I read the article, and thought it sounded good. Good enough for me to come on here and do some more research.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: BertChalmers on October 19, 2016, 12:48:04
Really confused now, so cars in the eco class are about the same speed or faster than the club class?, club classs have race orientated parts like uprated camshafts etc, but an engine with standard camshaft can be faster... or the whole cheaper car is faster?

At the moment there is nowhere else that the C1s can do a 24hr race, or even a sprint race (other than Holland and that s bit of a commute for the regular season) but I don't want to do sprints. We can't do Britcar without being a danger to the GT3's  or even the lower TCs tripping over us, That why I'd be so grateful to be on YOUR grid. We're not the fastest thing on the grid, blowing past you on the straights, we're not the slowest things that are constnatly in your way mid corner.

Please can I be absolutely clear though: I am not here to bully my way on to the grid,  I am not here to take over your club, championship, or anything else. I'd just like to race a 24hr race with similar paced machinery, cheaply, in a friendly paddock of fellow Citroen fans.....

slipping back to the A35 analogy, they've build up one race grid as part of a very well attended and well funded meeting. Not a season and not a 24hr race. If you asked them about doing a A35 24hr I'm sure they'd struggle for grids too.  


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Trevor Williams on October 19, 2016, 12:56:13
Who? Me?
I've not got a C1, or a 2CV.
I read the article, and thought it sounded good. Good enough for me to come on here and do some more research.

It seems you were more than interested in racing a 2CV in the 24 hour race in 2013....


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Trevor Williams on October 19, 2016, 13:04:11
Really confused now, so cars in the eco class are about the same speed or faster than the club class?, club classs have race orientated parts like uprated camshafts etc, but an engine with standard camshaft can be faster... or the whole cheaper car is faster?

At the moment there is nowhere else that the C1s can do a 24hr race, or even a sprint race (other than Holland and that s bit of a commute for the regular season) but I don't want to do sprints. We can't do Britcar without being a danger to the GT3's  or even the lower TCs tripping over us, That why I'd be so grateful to be on YOUR grid. We're not the fastest thing on the grid, blowing past you on the straights, we're not the slowest things that are constnatly in your way mid corner.

Please can I be absolutely clear though: I am not here to bully my way on to the grid,  I am not here to take over your club, championship, or anything else. I'd just like to race a 24hr race with similar paced machinery, cheaply, in a friendly paddock of fellow Citroen fans.....

slipping back to the A35 analogy, they've build up one race grid as part of a very well attended and well funded meeting. Not a season and not a 24hr race. If you asked them about doing a A35 24hr I'm sure they'd struggle for grids too.  


The Austin A35 race at Goodwood was organised by HSCC ( I think) and GRRC to be the two driver St Mary's race for 2016. The HSCC has started the A35 Race series (I think it is called the Academy) to get people into historic racing. They sell the series on the basis that you can buy a donor car for a few grand, but then you have to spend in the region of £25,000 to get the car into shape for racing.....

If you want to race in a 24 hour race in the UK you have two options. Race a 2CV, or race in the Creventic 24 Hours at Silverstone. One is for 2CVs, the other caters for modern cars.

Regards
Trevor



Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: indigorallye on October 19, 2016, 13:17:53
Who? Me?
I've not got a C1, or a 2CV.
I read the article, and thought it sounded good. Good enough for me to come on here and do some more research.

It seems you were more than interested in racing a 2CV in the 24 hour race in 2013....

That's correct. I was interested, still am in fact. But I'd rather race my own car than pay for a drive.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: BertChalmers on October 19, 2016, 13:26:00
Technically one caters for 2cv's, Protoypes and Minis  ;) - the other isn't really an option on safety grounds.

while the c1 is technically eligible for the Creventic 24hr (http://www.24hseries.com/uploads/files/24hseries/regulations_2016/Class_overview%26Eligible_cars_24HSERIES_2016_version_12%20April%202016.pdf)

It would be frankly dangerous. As a Comparison the dutch Citybug series (running 78hp not our 68) are lapping Zandvoort, where the creventic slowest lap during qualy was a 1:58 and the TCRs that we'd be sharing Silverstone with were at 1:50's... the mid corner speed of a fully aero'd TCR Leon at full tilt coming across even the best driver in a C1 in the dark is a bloody scary proposal.
 
I'm not sure Helen would accept our entry!!


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Paul on October 19, 2016, 13:35:58
Hahahaha.
Don't blame us 'outsiders' for this!
I think it's YOUR club that has created this market, not C1 owners with no where to race.
I will continue to monitor the progress of any series/ championship.
Thank you.

No it's not, it is our current chairman and managing director who have no mandate from the clubs membership (Being non elected directors) and didn't believe the members when they told them they were entering and so had a knee jerk reaction to allow C1's even though the board had turned them down years before.
 If people have built cars based on their say so that is their problem not ours,with any luck they won't be in office for many more weeks.
 We have had low grids before and no doubt we will have low grids again.
 Luddites of the world unite!


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: indigorallye on October 19, 2016, 13:44:15
Thanks for all the replies and lively discussion.
Keep up the good work.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Chris Yates on October 19, 2016, 13:50:39
I'd just like to race a 24hr race with similar paced machinery, cheaply, in a friendly paddock of fellow Citroen fans.....

Then you're in luck! There's a few race 2CVs for sale right now ;) Guaranteed elegibility for the *2CV* 24hr race next year. I'll even help you run it, and that's a promise.




Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: BertChalmers on October 19, 2016, 14:29:10
But I don't want to race a 2CV. (sorry)


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: naughtybear on October 19, 2016, 14:41:58
Don't want to or can't ??


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: BertChalmers on October 19, 2016, 14:49:53
Both technically, don't have one, don't want to build one, don't have a race licence at the moment. 


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: naughtybear on October 19, 2016, 15:08:05
Struggling to understand why you're hanging around then tbh


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: BertChalmers on October 19, 2016, 15:11:28
Initially it was to find out more information about the C1s as your were were kindly hosting them at Angelesey (knowingly or not)  and Spa, but since then it been purely for the banter.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: naughtybear on October 19, 2016, 15:38:27
Banter hasn't started yet!!  :P


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: indigorallye on October 19, 2016, 16:24:56
Initially it was to find out more information about the C1s as your were were kindly hosting them at Angelesey (knowingly or not)  and Spa, but since then it been purely for the banter.

Same for me.

Looking for budget endurance racing, but not in a 2CV.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Chris Yates on October 19, 2016, 17:05:04
Why not?

Is it an image thing? Or something else?


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: indigorallye on October 19, 2016, 17:12:56
Sponsors are not keen so it would be out of my pocket.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: naughtybear on October 19, 2016, 17:52:25
Chris, could be lack of talent lol


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Chris Yates on October 19, 2016, 17:54:05
Could be. I'm wondering why his sponsors are keen on him racing a bog-standard quiet-sounding Toyota Aygo...


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Bart van Wijngaarden on October 19, 2016, 18:20:58
Sponsors are not keen so it would be out of my pocket.
Sorry, the first part I can not imagine.
The 2cv is a cult car and something many people have something with. That should be appealing to (the right) sponsors.
 
Display your 2cv racer at their company event or so and the 'car' ;) will be the star of the day/evening.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: indigorallye on October 19, 2016, 18:49:34
Chris, could be lack of talent lol
As I've stated earlier, and some time ago when I first joined this forum I would quite like to race a 2CV.

Could be. I'm wondering why his sponsors are keen on him racing a bog-standard quiet-sounding Toyota Aygo...
I've not approached them about it yet.
I have approached them about the 2CV's, and they were not keen. That's them, not me.




Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: BertChalmers on October 19, 2016, 19:42:36
Same here, Sponsor happy to have their name on a recent, modern looking car.

Not doubting that the 2CV is a cult car, it is. Its an oddity and that does drag eye balls to it.  But much in the way Most people used to loook at the 2CV and say "my French teacher at school had one for those I can't believe you race them!" people and companies now recognise the C1 and have a similar connection

there's that and a safety thing on a personal note for me - its why I've stopped racing this year.... I've helped a young lady out of road going 107's after an RTA, she walked away from an accident I couldn't imagine even a caged 2CV surviving. If I'm being responsible for 4 drivers I want them to be the safest they can be.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: naughtybear on October 19, 2016, 19:44:12
My sponsors have their logo on a slow car driven fast...............


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: indigorallye on October 19, 2016, 19:50:11
My sponsors have their logo on a slow car driven fast...............
My sponsors have their logo on a fast car driven slowly........


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: naughtybear on October 19, 2016, 20:08:11
Literally nothing to say to that


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Chris Yates on October 19, 2016, 20:11:08
Same here, Sponsor happy to have their name on a recent, modern looking car.

Sponsor? You earlier claimed you don't have a race licence.

Something doesn't add up here, and it just looks like you are stirring the pot but you have no intention of racing either cars. Someone is asking you to come here and post your 'opinion' perhaps?


I've helped a young lady out of road going 107's after an RTA, she walked away from an accident I couldn't imagine even a caged 2CV surviving. If I'm being responsible for 4 drivers I want them to be the safest they can be.

Here we go - another angle. Perhaps you couldn't imagine a 2cv surviving a crash since you have such a low opinion of them, but we've seen some cars involved in some pretty nasty looking smashes, and drivers have walked away with perhaps some bruising.

Anyway, I think you have made your points repeatedly and clearly. We now seem to be looking for very spurious reasons why you think we should all replace our 2CVs with shiny new C1s.

Perhaps if the safety aspect bothers you so much you should race somewhere else, well away from those nasty 2CV things.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: naughtybear on October 19, 2016, 20:23:46
I think Chris is just about covering all the bases, I would have said sling your hook and stop wasting everyone's time if your not interested in racing a 2cv as this is the CLASSIC 2CV RACING CLUB. I think I read further up someone asking what on earth a Belgian arm was.............read the forum! All the information is readily available but why would you as I am convinced you have no intention to race and lots of intention to cause problems


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: indigorallye on October 19, 2016, 20:31:53
Just to be clear, I came here to seek more info on the C1's as a result of an article I read this morning.
What is now pretty obvious is that you guys aren't interested in them, but I think it's fair to say you've been pretty hostile in getting that message across.
Maybe I'll see you at Anglesey, lapping me, in either a 2CV or a C1, who knows!

PS What is a Belgian arm? One of Jean Claude Van Damme's biceps?


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Chris Yates on October 19, 2016, 20:37:12
Actually, I wouldn't say we've been hostile at all. Perhaps we've been quite firm in putting our points across, but not hostile. I've even offered to mechanic for either of you, should you enter a 2CV.

However, you want to race C1s in our 24 hour race. We don't want you to. I think that's fairly clear, and neither side looks to be changing their opinions. I'm losing patience with the repetition now.

Belgian arms are described on our main website: http://www.2cvracing.org.uk/belgian-arms/


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: naughtybear on October 19, 2016, 20:42:15
Nothing to see here. You won't see me lapping you in the 24 as you will be in the pits for three hours changing an engine!!


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: indigorallye on October 19, 2016, 20:43:47
Fair enough.  :)
I'll keep looking for other 24hr opportunities.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: BertChalmers on October 19, 2016, 20:58:07
OK Chris I think I need to clarify a few things for you.

Correct, I don't have a race licence, I haven't since 2002.  For the last 10 or so years I've been racing in the European Pro Kart Championship, club100 amongst others Series Feel free to look up 'Team Barnato'. You don't need a race licence to compete. 4 years ago I had a bad accident  at Teesside that put me into hospital. I should really have stopped then, but to be honest I'm an addict and I selfishly wanted to keep going, it wasn't until march this year that the veil slipped and I realised how selfish I was being to my family I made the choice to stop racing after this years Brit24.

As I put in early posts in this thread I want to go racing, maybe not with my arse in the seat but over the years I've realised I'm not that bad at team managing and I can prep karts and cars. There are a few drivers I know who have been intrigued by C1s, I've also have a number of companies who are happy to put there name behind me and the projects I run whether that's karting, cycling across the country, triathlons or whatever stupid midlife crisis adventure I have.

Thanks for clarifying the Belgian arms thing, and don't worry, I've took the hint we're not wanted.   ;)

p.s

Anyway, I think you have made your points repeatedly and clearly. We now seem to be looking for very spurious reasons why you think we should all replace our 2CVs with shiny new C1s.

I don't think you should replace your 2CVs, if you've been reading my posts fully, you'd see I've been trying to state how letting the C1 fill a tiny bit of the grid could help you make 2CV racing cheaper for you guys. You asked why I wanted to run a C1 well that's MY opinion - I'm not trying to ram it down anyone's throat or convert anyone They are just my reasons.



Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: indigorallye on October 19, 2016, 22:01:22
Well, if anyone fancies a drive in a 24, in something other than a 2CV or C1 then let me know.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: PushToTalk on October 20, 2016, 08:39:14
Well, if anyone fancies a drive in a 24, in something other than a 2CV or C1 then let me know.

I loved my first 24hr race and will definitely do another. A good mate of mine runs cars in the Dubai 24hrs and actually won it last year. He offered me a drive, but it's way out of budget. What series/car would it be in


Title: Citroen C1
Post by: simon turner on October 20, 2016, 14:04:09
Well that's at least half an hour of my life I won't be getting back reading all 7 pages.

Its the Classic 2CV Racing Club and any others by invitation only in just the 24h race. The C1 has no place racing with us and the majority of the members would support this view I believe.

If you two want to race C1's then here is not the place.



Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: indigorallye on October 20, 2016, 17:47:21
Well, if anyone fancies a drive in a 24, in something other than a 2CV or C1 then let me know.

I loved my first 24hr race and will definitely do another. A good mate of mine runs cars in the Dubai 24hrs and actually won it last year. He offered me a drive, but it's way out of budget. What series/car would it be in

We do the Creventic events, Silverstone in April, Magny Cours and Barcelona in September.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Dale on October 21, 2016, 09:33:48
Hi guys, new member, first post, etc...

I'm that "german guy"* who was building his C1 last week. We had a great race at Spa24 and everybody had a lot of fun. I'm mega happy with the driving experience, the running costs and the friendly nature of everybody in the pits and organisation.

I won't hide the fact I'm a bit disappointed by some of the reactions on here. I truly believe the little CitroŽn C1s could be really popular for Enduros, but they simply do not fit in a typical grid. We run a spec tyre that means we're slower than 'normal' race cars on straights, and bad on the corners too. I'm a regular on the VLN grid and have done a bit of Creventic and GT too, but I've never had the budget to build my own race car.... until the C1 experiment started!

At Spa we were quicker than the classic 2CVs and a bit slower than everything else (minis included!). It was great! Having the seen the hybrid 2CVs pushing the Euro cars first hand, I'd love to try one, but the C1 was just cheaper and easier to build, and easier to sell to my buddies too.

Personally I'm not interested in the sprint races, just the enduros. The reactions of the continental clubs seemed overwhelmingly positive at Spa, and I hope that we can find a way to visit the UK and join the fun at Snett or Anglesey.

Best regards and keep up the great work!

*I'm English actually, but I live here at the 'Ring


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Katy Storey on October 21, 2016, 13:14:09
there's that and a safety thing on a personal note for me - its why I've stopped racing this year.... I've helped a young lady out of road going 107's after an RTA, she walked away from an accident I couldn't imagine even a caged 2CV surviving. If I'm being responsible for 4 drivers I want them to be the safest they can be.


This is interesting to me personally. I walked away from two massive crashes at Spa this year with just saw muscles. One of the C1s had a crash and it took 4 of them to open the driver door. Obviously a RTA is massively different from a racing accident because of all the safety regulations, but both the C1s and the 2CVs follow the same safety guidelines (as far as roll cages, seats, harnesses etc. go), the 2CVs have had almost 30 years of racing experience with constant improvements to safety and judging by my crashes at the weekend there is no reason as to why you should think the four drivers you are potentially responsible for would not be the safest they could be.


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Marty on October 21, 2016, 15:04:18
Just a few words today to enter into this debate.
I am one of the drivers of the #172 and last year our car was destroyed over its left side by a double blow with the 2CV Hybrid #99 which does not mastered his power.
The driver was unhurt because our 2CV has scrupulously respected the rules of construction and was not cobbled in 2 weeks! This year, Katy, our Rust'in did not run because we want to rebuild both fast and safe. I totally agree with you.

Now when I see C1 drivers happy to pay a low price to run in Spa ... Classic crews paid 100% of the price of Ä4430 (£4000) while C1 had their 62% discount ! And we are in a 2CV race ?...
I will rewrite here soon, but it is vital for 2CV racing to preserve their playing field. I would be very disappointed if one day a C1 "won" a 2CV race ;-)
Please, let C1 build their own championship and not lay their eggs in others' nest.

Oh, one last thing: when Dale wrote he heard only positive things, he only heard what he wanted to hear ;-) Last week-end, aggressive driving style of C1 caused accidents, some towards Classic 2CV. Read the attached document that talks about the damage caused by C1 #103 ...


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: BertChalmers on October 21, 2016, 19:24:10

This is interesting to me personally. I walked away from two massive crashes at Spa this year with just saw muscles. One of the C1s had a crash and it took 4 of them to open the driver door. Obviously a RTA is massively different from a racing accident because of all the safety regulations, but both the C1s and the 2CVs follow the same safety guidelines (as far as roll cages, seats, harnesses etc. go), the 2CVs have had almost 30 years of racing experience with constant improvements to safety and judging by my crashes at the weekend there is no reason as to why you should think the four drivers you are potentially responsible for would not be the safest they could be.

Thank you for getting back to me Katy and putting my mind at rest, Good to Hear first hand reports


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Nick clarke on October 21, 2016, 21:23:36
I think some people miss the point. Our club is for people who love 2cv's and want to race them, it's not not a club for people who want to race cars, there's loads of them around,  the c1's seem to have lots of fans and I don't see them having any problems setting up their own club and organising there own races  and hopefully inviting 2cv's to some and us like wise them.
     Most members I have spoken to feel the c1's are being pushed on to the club, I feel the more there pushed at us the further the members will push them away.
    As invited agreed by the member guests I feel they would of been made welcome but the way it was done has turned people against them, hopefully done the right way there can still be joint ventures in the future at the end of the day we need numbers to make 24 hour races pay


Title: Re: Citroen C1
Post by: Louis on October 22, 2016, 08:01:12

This is interesting to me personally. I walked away from two massive crashes at Spa this year with just saw muscles. One of the C1s had a crash and it took 4 of them to open the driver door. Obviously a RTA is massively different from a racing accident because of all the safety regulations, but both the C1s and the 2CVs follow the same safety guidelines (as far as roll cages, seats, harnesses etc. go), the 2CVs have had almost 30 years of racing experience with constant improvements to safety and judging by my crashes at the weekend there is no reason as to why you should think the four drivers you are potentially responsible for would not be the safest they could be.

It depends what you hit. If you hit padded barriers (as I did at Cadwell) it was fine but it still made a mess. I'm glad I didn't hit anything harder and I'm glad that the impact wasn't side on, I think this is highest risk in a 2cv.

As it happens I'm not sure all of the members feel like C1s are being forced upon them but given the reaction here it's very clear to see why they would not openly say so... Either way as you say Nick thy have a big following after only two races.

Do we think this thread had reached the end of its useful life (5 pages ago), can we kill it? It's making us look like a rather unfriendly bunch.