Classic 2CV Racing Club Ltd

Classic 2CV Racing Club Ltd Forum => 24h-Race => Topic started by: Simon Crook on August 21, 2017, 11:41:02



Title: 2017 24hr
Post by: Simon Crook on August 21, 2017, 11:41:02
well done to all involved in this years 24hr Race from where I was it all looked ok, well to the commentary team too, think we as a club need too look at the live picture feeds for next year as this would greatly add to the remote experience - I know we get marshals looking on here so thank you to you guys and girls too your the best - Well done to all the teams, mechanics, friends and families you make this the event it is - sorry to see two cars damaged so badly, both drivers were lucky to escape injury! Congratulations to our podium finishers such a hard thing to achieve when all is good one minute, then as we all know it goes wrong!

And finally a big thumbs up to our championship winner (again) Lien and Team Gadget Racing another good effort rewarded.


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: hemi442 on August 21, 2017, 16:11:11
I'd like to add my specific thanks to the Board for all their hard work, on the tightrope, that they put into the Club to make these events happen so successfully and enjoyably.  There always seem to be more brickbats than praise and I feel the need to redress the balance.


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: Mick Storey on August 21, 2017, 17:55:08
Agreed, loved the event, it was good to get the circuit in the first place and spectacularly entertaining when we got there. Thank you to everyone involved in organising it. Last night was also brilliant, I just wish I could remember it.


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: gadget on August 21, 2017, 19:12:53
I think you were a banana!


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: gadget on August 21, 2017, 19:27:45
Without a doubt such a shame to lose 2cars through such a major incident.
I think we need to look at what happened and improve certain safety measures.
Paul,myself and Tony Tiger Big Nose Barnett were discussing the idea of welding a block to the chassis directly behind the steering tube mounting point to help to stop the tube going back towards the driver.
It may also be worthwhile investigating the roll cage.
Even though both done their jobs, without a doubt the one on the TeteRouge car worked better.It seems to show that a cagetagged to the shell is a good idea.
I think you were a banana!


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: gadget on August 21, 2017, 19:52:51
I also looked at the chassis on Chris's car and was puzzled by the rear legs.
It appears to be a frome chassis,but it has tappered rear legs! I don't remember that being done on a Frome race chassis!??
After all the talk about seats,frames etc, I don't think anyone would object to having a seat towards the centre of the car. If anyone wants to look at the seat frame in the TeteRouge car,it is quite obvious that it is strong and has done a good job.
After speaking to James in the Muffins car, he seemed to think that the harness belts slackened off because of the lack of support for the seat.

Speaking to Jarrow at the workshop today and discussing the weekend, he told me that there is an old Slovakian saying," after the war,everyone is a General!"
Maybe at the AGM this year we need to get all the generals to knock their heads together and come up with some improvements to put into the regs for the future.

I would like to start them off with some ideas to sort out the improvements to the fiasco of weighing cars during the race. There is an easy, sensible fair answer to this that has been suggested before.the msa scrutineers want it to happen and it will stop cars having to be weighed during the race.lets do it


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: Chris Yates on August 21, 2017, 20:26:28
I also looked at the chassis on Chris's car and was puzzled by the rear legs.
It appears to be a frome chassis,but it has tappered rear legs! I don't remember that being done on a Frome race chassis!??

I've never been able to figure it out either. As far as I could tell, it's a Frome (and others seem to agree), but the rear legs are wrong. Whether they've been changed in the past for some reason maybe, I don't know really. Anyway, Clarence II will have an SLC.

After speaking to James in the Muffins car, he seemed to think that the harness belts slackened off because of the lack of support for the seat.

The rear belts slackened because the cage backstays (and therefore the harness bar) were moved forwards in the impact, and the seat was tilted backwards (bending both the chassis top plate and the floor) due to the car being accelerated forwards, and the side harnesses were probably a bit slackened due to that.

Perhaps mounting at least the side harnesses to some sort of seat frame AND the shell/chassis would help in these situations?



Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: Sean on August 22, 2017, 07:15:03
both cars did their job you cant regulate for every eventuality, racing cars ends up in crashes

In the past ive questioned the quality of the scrutineering due to cars passing without secure seat mounts or missing other safety critical things....on cars id been asked to work on

the regs are there they just have to be enforced both cars in this instance were built by experienced builders beyond the bare minimum, the fabricators should feel proud their good work

It also shut up our driver who moans about his Hans every time!


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: Lien93 on August 22, 2017, 07:30:09
This is also why the technical committee exists. We are primarily concerned with safety and we are there to work in conjunction with the members and the scrutineer. We went down the line of garages just before the race and had a look at most of the cars. The standard is generally pretty good, but we did see a couple that need to make small changes.


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: Simon Crook on August 22, 2017, 09:30:12
This is also why the technical committee exists. We are primarily concerned with safety and we are there to work in conjunction with the members and the scrutineer. We went down the line of garages just before the race and had a look at most of the cars. The standard is generally pretty good, but we did see a couple that need to make small changes.

Hi Lien at one stage it was mentioned in the past that we all would get notified should there be any concerns with our cars is this still the case - sorry question not aimed at you really just the tech committee - would like to know if there where any concerns regarding my car!


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: Pete Sparrow on August 22, 2017, 10:21:19
Hi all, I hope you've all recovered.
If anything has come out of the weekend it is SAFETY.
We've all seen some big accidents in the last couple of years, ones which have given us goosebumps when we see the pictures.
As Sean says, you don't know when accidents are going to happen. In the case of 40 and 88 we were lucky that it was 2 2cv's not a faster heavier Mini or a Hybrid doing 20 mph more. Seeing 88 made me feel sick. Glenn is a very lucky boy. Thankfully that car is built well.
Think about this... Glenn is not a small chap, stopping him dead in a 4 foot space from 60mph is a lot of force. I have been thinking that if this had been another car with 3mm counter plates going onto a standard floor pan then that seat may not have stayed put. the consequences of that don't bare thinking about.
Now most of you know that our car has a seat frame that has come under scrutiny. It was made for a reason. One of the reasons Glenn had virtually no injuries is partly down to the seat frame Paul had made  for the car. I think that this type of system should be made compulsory. If required increase the weight limit by 10kg to accommodate it.
The other thing that supports is that on our second car 79, this car has the standard type of counter plates welded directly to the floor panel. The welding process will thin the material around the edge of the weld making the 0.7mm steel thinner than original. On this car we have found that the floor panel has cracked around the weld to the counter plate with the constant movement of the seat meaning it was attached on 2 sides only. I'm pretty sure that in the same accident that seat wouldn't have stayed put. I think we all need to check seat mounts/counter plates for the same issue.
We also need to get the log books back in place and issue proper notices and advice if defects are found.

Other than that a good weekend with some engine checks which is nice to see, almost no rain, good support from the officials and the best turn out for years. There are many positives so lets build on that.
Regards
Pete

 


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: Simon Crook on August 22, 2017, 11:31:10
Have to agree with Pete here on the seat mount side of things, mine are how the regulations state, I am not sure that my seat would have stayed put in such an impact although my cage is tied into the body at the front - I was thinking about this yesterday, what if it was a pay to drive driver in the car and something like this happened I don't think I would ever be able to forgive myself -   


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: Marty on August 22, 2017, 13:30:50
I totally agree with Pete : safety first
Perhaps a specific topic on security needs to be created in "24h-Race" ?

Otherwise, full results are here :  http://www.tsl-timing.com/file/?f=BARC/2017/1733212cv.pdf


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: Paul on August 22, 2017, 14:05:00
Have to agree with Pete here on the seat mount side of things, mine are how the regulations state, I am not sure that my seat would have stayed put in such an impact although my cage is tied into the body at the front - I was thinking about this yesterday, what if it was a pay to drive driver in the car and something like this happened I don't think I would ever be able to forgive myself -   
I wouldn't be able to forgive myself who ever it was Simon. I'm just glad we built the car to protect me(larger than the average bear) from injury.
 Seeing Chris's car was bad enough when that came in,let alone seeing Mycar(88) .which i couldn't face looking at properly until Monday.
The floor is largely intact because of the way the cage and 50x5 flat bar were installed,the seat frame(made of 10mm and 5mm aluminium angle) is strong enough to lift the car with i'm glad to say.


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: Nick clarke on August 22, 2017, 15:15:53
Im not sure how much of the rear window you allowed to cover, but this year more cars seemed to have blocked more out. Car 35 and some of the minis were near imposible to see through,  making drafting very dangerous as you can normally look through the car in front.


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: Paul on August 22, 2017, 15:34:33
I brought this up in post race scrutineering Nick,apparently the scrutineers couldn't find it in the regs. When i pointed it out to them they said you could see through the car just therefore it wasn't completely obscured.This rule needs changing.

CLEAR VIEW It is prohibited to completely obscure the view through the car from front to rear by the addition of strips of tape or similar. In the event of dispute as to compliance with the regulation the decision of the Chief Scrutineer shall be final.


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: Louis on August 22, 2017, 16:55:53
I agree with all the comments around safety, we must look at the roll cages and understand how we can improve (back stay to main hoop bars for example). We must also look into the quality of cages and how we can scrutineer them. I heard some worrying rumours about drilled bars on the floors in cages, total madness.


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: Simon Crook on August 22, 2017, 17:15:19
Have to agree with Pete here on the seat mount side of things, mine are how the regulations state, I am not sure that my seat would have stayed put in such an impact although my cage is tied into the body at the front - I was thinking about this yesterday, what if it was a pay to drive driver in the car and something like this happened I don't think I would ever be able to forgive myself -   
I wouldn't be able to forgive myself who ever it was Simon. I'm just glad we built the car to protect me(larger than the average bear) from injury.
 Seeing Chris's car was bad enough when that came in,let alone seeing Mycar(88) .which i couldn't face looking at properly until Monday.
The floor is largely intact because of the way the cage and 50x5 flat bar were installed,the seat frame(made of 10mm and 5mm aluminium angle) is strong enough to lift the car with i'm glad to say.
Paul I can under fully understand your feeling - many years ago when I broke both my feet in a race car - I could not look at the car at all for weeks - all of us want to race, have fun and go to work the following day like most i am the provider for family - I for one will be certainly getting the seat mounting looked at and altered to make safe - weights not an issue on my car I am heavy anyway, my drivers along with my own safety has to come first   


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: Simon Crook on August 22, 2017, 17:18:50
I agree with all the comments around safety, we must look at the roll cages and understand how we can improve (back stay to main hoop bars for example). We must also look into the quality of cages and how we can scrutineer them. I heard some worrying rumours about drilled bars on the floors in cages, total madness.

Lots of things like this go on Louis I brought an oval car a few years ago and we could not work out how the car was so light, turns out that the whole roll cage except the rear hoop was made out of exhaust tube and sleeved where the inspection holes where drilled!!!!!!


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: Nick Roads on August 22, 2017, 18:22:07
I assume seat belt location and way they are fitted to car will form part of any review. After my Oulton crash (car 92) somebody told me that belt mounting points are more important than frame mounting. If the frame breaks the belts should hold you, if the belt mounts fail then you have major problems however good the frame. Appreciate some belts attached to frames at all or some points so in those cases focus on the frame.

My seat was badly broken at Oulton and I suspect the hip harness may have been at the wrong angle, the hip belts according to manufacturer sites I have seen state that they should be mounted as close to the line of the leg and hip as practical & at an angle of 45-60 degrees. Moving the seat more centrally while using the cars original belt locations at the B pillar may not be best location for instance. The belt mount locations in Car 92 crash were all fine.

 https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Ar79wlZ8lNamtDSW1fNm1KWUk/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Ar79wlZ8lNamtDSW1fNm1KWUk/view?usp=sharing). Not much of a frame either if you look at the photos but that did hold being attached to plates.

The seat uprights also were bent on Car 40 at Snet I noticed like mine above - so the 'frames' seem to hold better than the uprights in all these accidents, maybe its by design the uprights are meant to flex.

 https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Ar79wlZ8lNU3h0Rms0VWZ2anM/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Ar79wlZ8lNU3h0Rms0VWZ2anM/view?usp=sharing) The seat was not very straight afterwards.

I agree with Wayne and Pete amongst others that the driver should for safety reasons be more central if possible. If Car 92 had been left hand drive I doubt I would be walking very well today.

Reading Chris and Louis's notes is I am going to look at adding tube between the vertical roll cage behind the B pillar and the rear cage legs to brace them.

Also at CSCC scrutinner this year with my hybrid car they wanted to see roll cage bar between the feet running forwards (below the hip bar).


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: Derek Coghill on August 23, 2017, 00:10:48
I agree about the lack of visibility. Does that lead on to a conversation about a limit on lumen outputs?


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: Louis on August 23, 2017, 04:09:14
The Technical Comittee have discussed this on several occasions. Measuring the light output is difficult and inconsistent without a dark room and proper equipment.  Limiting the light output in lumens or Lux at a distance will not stop glare, which is the issue.  I think all we can do about that is regulate the type of lamps, bulbs and fogs used, like in other series, then regulate that the road beam pattern is kept but that doesn't prevent someone driving round with main beam on behind you.

It sounds ridiculous but I've found the best thing for the glare to be a lightly tinted visor.


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: Dan Willan on August 23, 2017, 11:21:26
On a lighter note, I'd like to thank everyone from the four ECAS drivers. Paul, Fred, Phil & myself had an absolutely fantastic weekend! We had no idea what to expect - Fred has raced karts & single seaters, Phil raced tin tops 25+ years ago and while Paul has worked on the engineering side he, like me, had never actually done a race.

What we experienced was the best weekend's motorsport any of us has ever had.

Camaraderie, advice, banter, helping hands, competition. Just mega. We all loved driving the car too; its a real challenge to nail a 'perfect' lap and the racing was brilliant. Massive thank you to the Team Gadget caterers too, you girls made the weekend.

Really hope to return, although I think we used up all our luck this year!


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: biggles on August 23, 2017, 11:36:40
Re Rear screens Most of the minis one could see through because there were spaces The worst car was Rebellion  which was opaque  in daytime and  totally blank at night with lights


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: Maisie on August 23, 2017, 11:45:21
On a lighter note, I'd like to thank everyone from the four ECAS drivers. Paul, Fred, Phil & myself had an absolutely fantastic weekend! We had no idea what to expect - Fred has raced karts & single seaters, Phil raced tin tops 25+ years ago and while Paul has worked on the engineering side he, like me, had never actually done a race.

What we experienced was the best weekend's motorsport any of us has ever had.

Camaraderie, advice, banter, helping hands, competition. Just mega. We all loved driving the car too; its a real challenge to nail a 'perfect' lap and the racing was brilliant. Massive thank you to the Team Gadget caterers too, you girls made the weekend.

Really hope to return, although I think we used up all our luck this year!

Very glad you enjoyed it! What you've written pretty much sums up what makes the race great. The cars are fun (and not easy!) to drive, the racing is close and the paddock inhabitants are the nicest bunch of guys you could hope to be trapped at a circuit with for a weekend!


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: Dartiailh on August 23, 2017, 12:03:45
I would also suggest that there is a review on the night time yellow flags. As I am sure most of you will have noticed these illuminated yellow wands are very hard to see, especially when you have another car behind.


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: Paul on August 23, 2017, 12:34:27
I would also suggest that there is a review on the night time yellow flags. As I am sure most of you will have noticed these illuminated yellow wands are very hard to see, especially when you have another car behind.
I have been thinking about those James,i was wondering if each post couldn't have a pair of yellow beacons . Used singly or as a pair like waved yellows


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: Trevor Williams on August 23, 2017, 12:41:01
Did they not use the circuit light boards?


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: biggles on August 23, 2017, 12:54:30
Dont think that marshals hut has a light board or wasnt working Can they independently control?  I didnt see one but the baton  was being waved  and James was tucked right underneath it moving very slowly


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: Paul on August 23, 2017, 13:04:34
The thing with the baton's is you almost have to be looking for them they aren't exactly Mensa level of brightness.A beacon would give off so much light that even if you were unsighted of the marshal you would still see the flash .


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: Paul on August 23, 2017, 13:17:37
On a lighter note, I'd like to thank everyone from the four ECAS drivers. Paul, Fred, Phil & myself had an absolutely fantastic weekend! We had no idea what to expect - Fred has raced karts & single seaters, Phil raced tin tops 25+ years ago and while Paul has worked on the engineering side he, like me, had never actually done a race.

What we experienced was the best weekend's motorsport any of us has ever had.

Camaraderie, advice, banter, helping hands, competition. Just mega. We all loved driving the car too; its a real challenge to nail a 'perfect' lap and the racing was brilliant. Massive thank you to the Team Gadget caterers too, you girls made the weekend.

Really hope to return, although I think we used up all our luck this year!
It was a pleasure Dan,glad you enjoyed our misunderstood racing.You might as well make use of all that safety equipment you bought and come out to play some more next year.


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: Marty on August 23, 2017, 13:39:23
I assume seat belt location and way they are fitted to car will form part of any review. After my Oulton crash (car 92) somebody told me that belt mounting points are more important than frame mounting. If the frame breaks the belts should hold you, if the belt mounts fail then you have major problems however good the frame. Appreciate some belts attached to frames at all or some points so in those cases focus on the frame.
My seat was badly broken at Oulton and I suspect the hip harness may have been at the wrong angle, the hip belts according to manufacturer sites I have seen state that they should be mounted as close to the line of the leg and hip as practical & at an angle of 45-60 degrees. Moving the seat more centrally while using the cars original belt locations at the B pillar may not be best location for instance. The belt mount locations in Car 92 crash were all fine.
Not much of a frame either if you look at the photos but that did hold being attached to plates.
The seat uprights also were bent on Car 40 at Snet I noticed like mine above - so the 'frames' seem to hold better than the uprights in all these accidents, maybe its by design the uprights are meant to flex.
The seat was not very straight afterwards.
I agree with Wayne and Pete amongst others that the driver should for safety reasons be more central if possible. If Car 92 had been left hand drive I doubt I would be walking very well today.
Reading Chris and Louis's notes is I am going to look at adding tube between the vertical roll cage behind the B pillar and the rear cage legs to brace them.
Also at CSCC scrutinner this year with my hybrid car they wanted to see roll cage bar between the feet running forwards (below the hip bar).

After being hit at Spa in 2015, we were very happy to have no injured driver, although the shock was on a left-hand drive.
This is due to the very good quality of the metal chosen for our roll cage (it folded under the push of the left door)
(https://i11.servimg.com/u/f11/16/99/18/81/after_12.jpg)

But we are also lucky that the shock did not take place 50 cm higher.
(https://i11.servimg.com/u/f11/16/99/18/81/after_11.jpg)

Consequently, during the construction of our new 2CV, for 2018 Eco Class 24HR race, we'll slightly raise the horizontal bar to the left of the driver, increase the quality of the materials, and be extremely careful on the points of attachment to the chassis.


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: Dartiailh on August 23, 2017, 13:41:16
The thing with the baton's is you almost have to be looking for them they aren't exactly Mensa level of brightness.A beacon would give off so much light that even if you were unsighted of the marshal you would still see the flash .

This would be a very good alternative to light boards. As you say Paul, they would be very difficult to miss :o


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: Trevor Williams on August 23, 2017, 14:14:44
I know what was available at the circuit, both wand-style and beacons, which have been used at all the 24 hour races since it came back to the UK in 2003.

My question was more in relation to the circuit light panels which are located around the circuit, and can either be controlled by the relevant marshal post or centrally from Race Control


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: Caterham Man on August 23, 2017, 16:25:52
Nice write up on the 24hrs, but you missed Tom Perry out of the Team Gadget drivers. He set the fastest "602" lap of the race so I think he deserves a mention.


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: gadget on August 23, 2017, 19:44:55
The wands are fine when you are following the safety car.
Not that good when at race speed.
It should be an easy fix as led lights are now so much more advanced than 4/5 years ago.


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: gadget on August 23, 2017, 19:50:37
I think so too Mr Caterham man,
Cos when he set that time it was pitch black,about 2 in the morning.
We ha be always thought that he was a little strange though,with these little pointy ears, and he's always hanging around.


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: naughtybear on August 23, 2017, 21:51:09
On the subject of lights, I did question with a few other drivers if you actually needed the two spots/floods........
I ran at Spa last year on just two LED headlamp bulbs and again this year at snett and didn't have any issues.


Title: Re: 2017 24hr
Post by: Derek Coghill on August 25, 2017, 17:45:33
"Did they not use the circuit light boards?"

Yes they did, Trevor. Yellow ones and white ones.