It might be interesting to hear peoples views on the impact of the C1's that were racing at the Spa event ?
Personally I think the impact of off the shelf cars versus cars that require effort to build and run was negative too many people been watching touring cars on the telly and think that's the way to race.
Personally, I had a fantastic race with no issues or complaints. It made it far more entertaining having over 100 cars on the grid than 50-60 in the past. Initially the hardest bit was with the slower classes, such as the Classiques, they were a bit too slow and sometimes presented themselves mid corner and you had to adjust, but because they were very slow you got used to predicting where they were going and just drove round them and treated it as a moving chicane which added to the enormous fun. (I do think they wired their indicators the wrong way round, but once you got used to ignoring their intentions it wasn't an issue).
The minis would always squeeze more track when you flashed to let them know you were going to pass (I would do the same if I were them), but again you got used to that and stopped letting them know you were there!
Can't wait till next year! They are expecting 140 cars on the grid for next year.
(BTW was Tom Perry's FL in the dark and on his own?)
San,
I don't know what class of car you were running on, but your contempt for the Classique's 2CV is scandalous and shameful.
I'll come back later, calmly, on all the problems that have arisen during this race, but let me say first a few things :
First of all, the name of the race is "24H 2CV" and if other vehicles are invited, like 2CV with BMW engine, Mini, or C1, this should remain a race respecting all competitors
Then, you received 60% discount to register, which resulted in a very large number of C1 entered and unbalanced the race. :-\
During the drivers' briefing, you were told that the 24H2CV regulations stipulate that the fastest vehicles must adapt to overtake the slower ones.
I have seen a lot of times C1 who didn't know how to take the inside of a bend in the rain and who hit the 2CV they overtake ! ::)
The scorn you display is pitiful, I assure you.
Hi Marty,
On the contrary, you miss-understand. I enjoyed all the different aspects and challenges presented and competing against all the different speeds of cars. I had an absolute hoot of a race and enjoyed every moment on track and off track.
Your response would suggest your experience was a different one to mine. As I previously said, I can't wait till next year's race.
I suggest you re-read what I wrote. I had immense fun racing against all cars. Not once was I hit or hit anything and I think I speak for the other 3 drivers in the car I shared.
I am intrigued to know which Classique you were in.
Different classes seem inevitable as Spa need Grids over 100.
In my uk hybride (52) and when in my club class in car in the past I have never had any problems with any of the Classique drivers.
The c1's were a lot better than the funcups but did vary in ability as I saw it but given how many new drivers there were coming from different backgrounds should that be a surprise. The lap times seemed to show that variance in a supposedly 'standard' class, quali difference was 17 seconds for the C1's, 1 second for the UK club class. It was over 17 seconds difference for the UK hybrides in quali 1st to 4th but that was done to tyres in the wet as cars on different tyres.
Marty - the Classiques are a better fit in the UK race than at Spa. We don't have C1's, our club class cars much closer to yours and we share the same values. Its half the price of Spa as you say so what is not too like? Email to discuss further as I am working on the race and with the invited classes. If it was the 10 classiques, 5 ameliorees that raced from Spa, 6-10 Mini Grands and 25 UK club class and economy we would have a full grid and a fantastic race.
Hello San,
I'm sorry if I misspoke. I did not speak about your feeling of the race (I don't even know what car you raced on ?), but of that of the Classiques. But admit that your sentence "I do think they wired their indicators the wrong way round, but once you got used to ignoring their intentions it wasn't an issue" could lead to confusion ? ???
Every year it's the same thing: Classiques pay the maximum rate and are maltreated. One example, among others : did you know that last week-end, 6 Classiques, out of a total of 9, were forced to start from the pitlane, with all the disadvantages that this entails (tires and engines not hot, no great picture of the start for sponsors, disadvantage between Classiques, etc.)?
It was not a safety problem (more than 100 vehicles are existing) and although the number of registrations had been known for several weeks, this requirement was communicated to the Classiques just one hour before the start of the race. :'(
To answer your question, the Classique I'm racing in is #172 (see attached picture). But it is undergoing a complete reconstruction because it was destroyed in October 2015.
And you, San, on what car were you racing ?
Nick, thanks++ for your words, I'll e-mail you further
Hi Marty,
I was responding to Colin asking what our views were about the C1's. My response was that I had no issues or complaints but shared a couple of different observations. I never meant to offend or upset anyone. I appreciate that you didn't like my comment about the indicators but twice I was caught by a car indicating one way and then going the other. It is not a big problem and agree that it is up to the car behind to manoeuvre to get passed.
I take your point about the name of the race and respecting all competitors goes without say.
It is not great starting from the pit lane and share your opinion about it.
Having just seen the picture of your destroyed car and read your race report – as I understand it, Car 99H hit your car and your went into the tyres and was wrecked. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I do appreciate the amount of time effort and expense that goes into preparing a car. I am sorry to see your destroyed car, it looks totally demolished – I am sorry. There were a few accidents probably related to speed differentials and overcrowding.
I hope you are able to repair #172 and look forward to seeing you in the UK with it.
From the perspective of driving a Classique, what is like with all the other cars going passed?
San
Hi San
My note was just to ask peoples views I don't have much of a view one way or the other. our car was involved in a collision with a wayward C1 in qualifying destroying the front left corner 2 hours before the start so we missed that, a terrific effort by Tete Rouge and our star mechanic Steve got us out a bit after the start but that's racing I have no axe to grind other than 2CV's and hybrids take time and effort to build and sort C1's seem like a weekends work to get race ready so people don't seem to worried about damaging them. Would you have something hand built or off the shelf ? tis the modern way though I do wish people would be in one camp or the other.
My mind is made up which way I'm going for good or bad.
Hi Marty, why did six of the nine classics forced to start in the pit lane? i totally agree with your disadvantage this causes.
Regards
Simon
I will only write about my OWN experience on the track in Rosie Racing's car #71 at 2017 Spa 2cv 24hr race.
I came to Spa expecting to be bullied on the track by hordes of rampant, badly driven C1s, for me this 'bullying' simply did not happen, I will not speak for others in the team or any other drivers of course.
I found the UK C1s a little too quiet sometimes, sneaking past in a blind spot, I found that, due to their higher stance and more forgiving road suspension the b'stards could overtake on my outside in the wet on the white and the green and the grey at Pouhon and still emerge on all 4 wheels after the 2nd apex.
To have that many cars on the circuit meant a busy and interesting race. It's a shame that the classiques are not as fast as our UK 602 2cvs, that would make for a more exciting event. Our Rosie Racing 2cv completed the event on a single engine but down a little on power against 2016 event and both that engine and our same gearbox will be racing again in 2018.
Just wish we could fill the places with UK 2cvs at Spa rather than the C1s, which are simply rebadged Toyotas which should bear no comparison to 2cvs.
It was amusing to watch a pair of C1s #309 and another trading mirrors and breaking same off on the F1 start/finish straight, reminded me of a similar pointless tussle with Royce Grey in 1999? whilst labouring up Kemmel in our considerably slower cars.
I had no real issues with the C1s. A few spun off, and ruined my line, got the car out of shape. A few overtook me under code 60, but the same is applicable to pretty much all the other classes, classiques seemed to like being able to over take the other classes under code 60 too :P.
Loads of cars on track made it really interesting, like Roy says, just a shame there weren't more UK 2cvs.
To have that many cars on the circuit meant a busy and interesting race. It's a shame that the classiques are not as fast as our UK 602 2cvs, that would make for a more exciting event. Our Rosie Racing 2cv completed the event on a single engine but down a little on power against 2016 event and both that engine and our same gearbox will be racing again in 2018.
I may want my gearbox back for next season. Especially seeing as it has beaten me twice now 🤔🤔😁😁😭😥
So apart from my beef about C1 driving standards which could and will probably addressed among them selves the big grid was seen as fun and a busy race with plenty of code 60's to give a bit of a break was acceptable.
Our hybrid proved a bit fragile but bleeding on the edge of development !!! doe's no harm So the target is more track time and less garage time next year.
Congrats to all who competed who won or not. Hard work great fun.
Thanks to the Belgian organisers for a great event.
I had C1s overtake under Code 60 usually in a pack Black one with green illuminated bonnet cit badge did it twice in about 4 laps Couple of the belgian hybrids werent too fussy either
:DSimon and others,
Spa has only 98 grid slots to start a race. 108 qualifiers meant that the last 10 spots had to be from the pitlane.
Steve
Quote from: Steve Panas on October 29, 2017, 04:00:18
:DSimon and others,
Spa has only 98 grid slots to start a race. 108 qualifiers meant that the last 10 spots had to be from the pitlane.
Steve
thanks Steve that makes sense now thank you
Sorry, Steve, the circuit has 98 grid slots in the "Endurance" straight line, but dozens more on "F1" the straight line. (cf Funcup)
If the C1 had started from the "F1" straight line, all 2CV could have taken a normal start of "24H 2CV" race.
Whether in the technical regulation, the sporting regulations, or the special regulations, in no place, nowhere, there is mention of this restriction to 98 grid slots...
And in any case, the organizers would have had to warn only one hour before.
Hi Marty - not heard from you as yet. We are only guests at Spa so best to direct these questions to 2CVRT ?
Crisis UK hybride car no 52 completed the whole race with only 4 minutes in the pits in the entire race. It did not run out of fuel, all its wheels stayed on, not a panel was dented and appears to have finished in the condition it started so had a great race (:
Some good footage below of the start by Louis Tyson. The car was very tricky to drive in the wet but a lot better in the dry, started 72nd as quali was in the wet... a great drive by Louis
https://youtu.be/EjTVpp5dLjc (https://youtu.be/EjTVpp5dLjc)
Neat work Louis..
The Zucchini didn't fancy you round the outside at Blanchimont
Good driving.
Spa is the best track in the world and good value for UK cars. I do not understand why more cars do not take it up, equally, why don't the Classiques come to the UK, I'm sure a good encouraging deal could be had. The C1s weren't a problem for me and I'm delighted how reliable our car was. That's the 10th 24 hour race that engine has done (and the second behind the MIM gearbox - thanks). I love Spa
Ten 24hour races on one engine!
You're either not racing,or that's a bent engine
2CV Team LION are already planning to run at least one 602 at Spa in 2018. Interested drivers - please get in touch. Looking for clarification on fuelling rules and advice on the best radio.
Martin - 2018 Spa 24 Hour may be a couple of weeks later than this year.
As you note there have been some communications about refuelling with 2CVRT. These arose as the Belgian equivalent of the MSA and Spa has a lot of endurance races so sometimes we get caught up with problems from other races and they wanted to mandate a different system for non FIA approved refuelling.
2CVRT have raised the possibility of Tuff Jugs staying on for 2018 with the scrutineers and I have offered that we can make a submission on it if required. It only affects Belgium and Tuff jugs not a problem in France.
Worth noting that the scrutineers in Belgium like in UK are independent of the race organisers.
Fire extinguishers were, again, a problem. The extinguishers must have an official test sticker and this must show they have been tested within the last 2 years of a race.
MSA tightening up on this as well and it is going to be mandatory next year apparently in UK:
https://www.msauk.org/assets/rulechangesoctober2017.pdf
' All extinguishers must be serviced in accordance with the manufacturers guidelines, or every 24 months, whichever is sooner' it was recommended before
for the technically minded read Appendix 3 of the above ..below quoting the reason for the Appendix 3 rule change
Reason: To adopt FIA fire
extinguisher regulations from 2019,
whilst allowing existing vehicles to
use their non-FIA extinguishers until
2022, at least two service cycles.
The extinguisher manufacturers
have confirmed that they will no
longer be producing no-FIA systems
due to the small market, FIA
systems are now of comparable cost
and size-weight to non-FIA systems.
This seems to have been behind the other problem we had in that there was a lot of issues around 'anti torpedo' for the brackets. This caused problems for teams from all countries. The anti torpedo rules having checked are a bit simpler than what we were trying to manufacture at Spa ! and for £ 30 can be bought from Demon tweeks etc
https://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorsport/fire-extinguisher-retaining-brackets-straps/lifeline-fia-approved-anti-torpedo-extinguisher-bracket-with-t-bolt-straps (https://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorsport/fire-extinguisher-retaining-brackets-straps/lifeline-fia-approved-anti-torpedo-extinguisher-bracket-with-t-bolt-straps)
Seems the Belgians were applying:
* From 01/01/2016 All FIA Technical List 16 extinguishers MUST be fitted to brackets with Anti-Torpedo Tabs as FIA Appendix J Article 253.7.2.2 Published 10/07/2015.
So I would suggest for 2018 all extinguishers must have been serviced within 2 years of every race and would get a bracket like the one above if using extinguishers for races in any country
Rosie and MIM used radios which seemed to work well but not sure what they were.