Lets hope we get more entries for silverstone and mallory than we have had for cadwell and anglesey .The warning from the barc at anglesey is that they are most unlikely to keep the championship going with the numbers we have been getting .
I've just filled in the entry form for Silverstone (both races); I couldn't afford to go to Anglesey. There was a good turn-out at Silverstone last year - hope for more of the same.
I think the BARC have a bit of a cheek to warn about numbers at Anglesey after they failed to be able to provide any information regarding times until the week of the event!
This goes against earlier events this calander which have had suitable provisional information published often a month in advance.
The commentators (apart from when club members have managed to be in the box) has been appalling. They're derisory comments and have assed attempt at commentating is not selling the club either. Whom should complaints regarding this be made? I know a complaint was lodged at Anglesey, though this did little good.
Sorry, rant over!
C x
I think Catherine is right about the comentating - not just at Anglesey either.
we obviously are a group of people with a sense of humour otherwise why would we race 2cv's but at the end of the day any negative comments can not do us any good with either the public or other competitors. Why would any one want to race a 2cv if they will have the piss taken out of the at the circuit? we have a hard eneough job away from it. With falling numbers it is even more of an issue.
I think the club should write to Anglesey and BARC as this is a common thing and say enough is enough. Please don't say anything if it's not constructive or positive.
What do we think?
:evil:
So I have a just bought a 2cv with a whole heap of spares just to look at next year :?:
As Anglesey was the first time that I had seen the 2cv's in action (apart from the hours of video that Mr Sparrow lent me :shock: ) I thought the sprint race was good to watch, great close racing in a very wet situation and at the time thought the comentary was just dreadfull, especially when THAT IDIOT WITH THE MICROPHONE SAID "If you think this is exciting you should see the hour race"
I am looking forward to racing with you all next year, the reason I chose a formula that I know very little about is:
Race at some great tracks
Race with a limited budget
And above all have some fun
after Anglessey and near success at Cadwell I'm doing S'stone and Mallory.
The baby may need to wait for tatoos, nose piercing, and Ingerland strip.
In the meantime - if you've got a car grab a friend and get out there. I'm enjoying my racing more than I have in ages 'cos the club is back to where it was. Friends meeting up, competing and sharing the experience.
The marshalls who helped me out of the tyre barrier said to me when I bumped into them at church break that they were l;ooking for a car to buy. I will follow up on that one.
A further point is that when folk who own cars share, it reduces the number of car available to race. This is the risk of 2 driver races.
Graham and I wouln't be out if didn't share. However, we could make the spare car pay for our racing by renting out. Which is what I think we'll need to do next year.
So if you've got a car spare and you're sharing. Why not rent out? It could subsidise your racing. We do it at 24hr why not more often?
Sounds like BARC are talking b*ll*cks again!
They're doing a great job of destroying championships at the moment.
I race in another BARC series & have seen grid sizes for other series much smaller than ours.
With a slightly different timetable, many of us would do more rounds.
And it applies to other BARC-run championships as well - I can only manage 3 rounds (out of 12) in their FF2000 series & 1 for 2CV's, whereas I can manage 5 rounds at Lydden & 2 Monoposto.
BARC should help to promote what we do, not threaten to destroy it.
Write to them & tell 'em!
We should also get a series commentator - I nominate Pete Sparrow to hang up his helmet in favour of a microphone!
An AGM topic, perhaps?
QuoteWe should also get a series commentator - I nominate Pete Sparrow to hang up his helmet in favour of a microphone!
Oooohhh, I'll second that! ;)
C x
I'm pretty sure that Richard John Neil (series commentator for Legends) offered to do it a few years ago, but obviously he wouldn't be able to do both if their in different places at the same time. Also, I could have totally imagined this, got the wrong end of the stick, wasn't listening etc. :?
He is a great guy and all in favour for 2CV racing. Glenn Burtenshaw is friends with him so might be worth talking to glenn about it.
Can we get some club members together for the next few races to comentate? I might be up for it. I can talk all day. Cathrine talks for Scotland!
:P
Lies! I'm quiet and sweet and innocent! ;)
C x
I'm all in favour of Pete commentating, he should start now and not do anymore rounds this year.
GBA :D
Richard john neil was very interested in commentating for 2cv racing as he's a big fan. This year i think a lot of rounds clashed with the legends, but may be if next year they don't we should employ him. Legends and MX5's also employ series promoters. Both these championship do well for grids. I know it costs money to employ commentators and promoters but i was under the impression the 2cv club had some healthy funds. Everyone keeps saying about not enough cars are out, but actually should we ask where are our new members, only simon leigh constantly this by my recogning and many have not rejoined so of course we've got small grids. Lets have a promoter to work along side the excellent work that dick does and commentor to inform everyone how great 2cv racing really is.
Richard - thanks for your very kind comments.
In reply I would personally love to be the commentator - I did 12 years with the BBC and microphones and cameras are in my blood.
Sad thing is, although there is an excellent view of the race from the commentary box, it is impossible to commentate and photograph at the same time.
Getting a good commentary is a large part of the racing experience for the spectators and I believe it is very important for the club. I hope the club can encourage someone to take over from the sad people who have done it recently with no understanding or enthusiasm.
All the members of the club who have commentated have done an excellent job and Ainsley has compiled an excellent information pack.
Go on - have a go!
'BARC should help to promote what we do, not threaten to destroy it.
Write to them & tell 'em! '
Some one else that thinks the same - well done Rod
I've been saying this for 15 years
At last!
Pete & I agree on something other than it's always his turn to buy the beers!
We should promote the series - it's racing's best kept secret!
I think it's better as an endurance series because, other than Radicals & Britcar, there's nothing else running races over 1 hour in duration, & it's a very cost effective & entertaining formula in endurance form.
In sprint form, we have to recognise that we have competiton from series like the MX5's & MR2's, both of which can be built for less than a competitive 2CV costs.
The promoters will sell you an MR2, track prepared, for £3250!
They come with bullet-proof mechanicals as standard, look "right", are rear-wheel drive, are well promoted, have full grids etc..
These clubs are full of novice drivers - 'nuff said.
We need to learn from these championships: they provide a standard pack of parts to upgrade a road car to a race car for a modest cost, are well promoted & offer competitive racing.
Tempting, eh?
I don't see how a lack of cars is the fault of the barc .We had 33 cars and over 100 drivers out for the 24hr, the best we have acheived since is 17 .The race calendar for this season is by and large what we discussed at the agm and then asked for, we have all had plenty of time to plan our time around those meetings that fell after the 24hr race. There are over 50 cars in the club that means there are as many NOT racing as made up the grid for snetterton for the 24hr race.
We as a club need to get car owners to race thier cars NOT just sit looking at them for year after year.
I don't know that there is a simple answer to this but at the end of the day the result has to be MORE CARS ON THE GRID .
You can't rely on the same people to keep the series going so you can come out on the odd occasion .
Rant over
For now
Paul+
how did BARC decide that the silverstone event was the right one to cancel. What was wrong with cancelling one of the other 4 event that are on. Is it because
we may be percieved as the lowest life form of the racing world???
there are only two clubs to upset?? Us and 7's
they are deliberately trying to shut down the low end of the market??
They are trying to reduce the overall number of championships.
The problem they dont seem to have grasped (as far as i can tell from a few years in the club) is that they dont realize that 99% of the club members and racers are not racers, but 2cv enthusiasts, whom without 2cv racing would not necessarily go and race something else. This is where other more nondescript; multi make; and modern boring box on wheels; champioships shall always have an advantage. They are not in it particularly for the cars, but for the racing.
Its not always black and white chequerd blood cells that pump through your viens but chevron shaped blood cells.
Give em some grief, protest, moan, gripe, they'll do what they like. The fact that we still have falling grids is only giving them more ammunition.
If you can race, race. if you cant afford it, sell the car or rent it to somone who can, or doesnt have the ability / time to prep a car. I'll always be in the pit lane and will fix anybody if they are stuck!!!!
bring out the cars. dont fuel the fire at BARC
Have to agree with Paul above.
Calender for this year was what we wanted with the exception of a sprint and enduro at Croft.
The Championship doesnt work as solely sprint or enduro. We are restricted in the number of circuits that we can go to for enduros, as well as the number of other series that would put up with us doing enduros at the same meetings as them. Regularly the Grads discuss getting longer races, and if they did, guess who would get first choice due to their grid numbers
Anglesey was poorly attended. Full Stop. But the format was what was wanted. Yes it's 6 hours from anywhere in the country, but so what? If you want to race, thats where the race is.
Don't think that the 24hour race is the be all and end all. If we go down, so does that race!
Get your cars out or you will be looking at 540kg of scrap metal in your garages in a few years
Rant over
Trevor
Good points well made, so what's everyone going to do about it? Rantings all well and good. If the formats and dates are what was voted for then why on earth aren't the cars on the track?
C x
Is it worth looking into if we can join the legends?
If we can do that the commentator will be there. 2 great championships in one day.
Putting my money where my mouth is, Simpson, Woodward & self are building a second car for 2007, to race, not to look at.
We haven't done more in 2006 because the calendar clashes with pre-ordaned events like family weddings, family holidays & work commitments.
Woodward has been given dispensation from the highest authority in the land AKA the wife, to do more racing in 2007.
He'd have done more in 2006 but .................
Simpson & I hope next years calendar fits more easily with other activities than this years.
Lots of comments regarding the lack of interest and recognition from the BARC.
So lets go and talk to the 750 Motor Club, they would have us, and they love budget racing series.
Barc work out our entry fees based on 20 car grids so at anglesy they were down on the projected budget by 9x £170=£1530 and 6x£355=£2130 which comes to a staggering£3660.The losses based on 8 cars for silverstone were £5700 .
The only grid we have fulfilled their 20 car calculation is the 24hr race so every other meeting they have lost from their budget.
If I or any other sane business person had to chose which race meetings to run on the limited resourses at their disposal which would you cancel, those with confirmed entries or those which are losing you money?
As for the 750 motor club they have turned us down in the past when we made enquiries and it is unlikely they would have the resourses to run the 24hr race .
If BARC & 750 MC don't want us then perhaps SEMSEC would?
They only use 2 circuits but it suits us soft southerners!
They are patient - still promoting grids of less than 10 for their single seater challenge - & they spun out the BMW series when it became too popular to run on their small circuit.
Perhaps we need to take a step backwards before going forwards.
Remember that we're not the only BARC series that's struggling to field 20 car grids, so we shouldn't beat ourselves up too much.
If the 24 hour race is lost, that's the end of the series, I fear.
We have to do whatever we can to keep that event going while we re-think everything else.
I agree with your scenario completely Rod, the biggest problem for 2CV's going forward is that they don't mix comfortably with other classes, whereas most other struggling Series can usually be amalgamated with another.
Certainly as it stands, if we believe the losses described by Paul, the series will become a once a year feature race at Snetterton.
Maybe we should forget about the "MSA National Championship" status, and shop around for some cheaper events at Club level, the club could still run a points system.
Thanks Bob, nice to know someone else is on my wavelength.
The unique point of 2CV's is the ability to do endurance racing for a sensible price.
I'm sure the EERC would be delighted to provide us with an hour or so at their meetings - the entry fees give them better recovery for the cost of hiring the circuit.
Sprint racing in 2CV's is as expensive as any other car - the entry fees are the same as the BARC run URS series, but they get the best circuits (like Thruxton) & garages!
The great thing about this club is that at least we're addressing the problem early & not ducking the issues.
I am grateful that Paul has brought this issue to the forefront of our minds early enough for us to plan a response or alternate strategy.
Whilst that may suit southern softies, it kills us Scots and northerners! Like we don't have enough travelling to do already!
No easy answers by the looks of things.
C x
i've got an idea why don't we promote the championship using some of the clubs money? Oh no i've already said that.
seriously thought, why not?
Another stupid yellow face is in order :?: :shock:
Richard
We are considering using some of the club's money, the problem is what is the most cost-effective use.
A few ideas to date:
Tyres: If we can get the F560s made again, bulk buy 100+ for members to use. Could cost upwards of £7,000.00
Entry Fees: Subsidise entry fees for the first few rounds to the first 15-20 members who enter an event. Could cost £1500+ per round
New Equipment: Scales etc £1,000+
Entries: Guarantee BARC costs for each round. £3,500 per round minimum
24 Hr Race: Block book entire Friday Test Day. £?????
All this plus other ideas soon takes a significant bite out of the bank balance.
Cheers
Trevor
I am new to the Club and new to racing this year, after helping at the previous two 24Hr races. I have really enjoyed it so far and am planning to do as many races as possible (only missed Cadwell so far due to broken Car after 24Hr race). I certainly plan to continue next year not least to get Paul Taylor out of the house occasionally.
I would though certainly vote for any ways to cut or keep costs down, particularly if this gets more cars out (I might not be so near the back then !!!)
Nick.
yes that all sounds good, what i was suggesting was some form of promotion of the club as well so new people get to know about. I still think we don't have enough regularly new members. Maybe we should speak to Simon at Stringray?
Richard
I agree, but advertising / promotion still costs money.
As stated above anything would need to be cost-effective. If wee spend thousands and still only attract one or two new members is that cost effective?
When we did the Autosport show we used to get one new member if we were lucky. If we have to pay to do the show that works out at the entire racing membership fees at the start of the season just to attract one more person. Not costs effective. We have enough racing members and cars out there to fill most grids we do, surely the question is how to get them out? I know many people who have said that the recing and the craic this year are as good as any previous year, so why aren't more coming out for the fun???
Cheers
Trevor
Rich
strangely enough I had this conversation with Simon last night.
We all know we need to get off of our arses and do something but we need more cars out to keep it in profit,otherwise,no club.
We hope to be having a meeting soon on how best to move forward for next year.This will include advertising and various other bits.I think Simon is the man for this as he has a vested interest in the club and it's his specialist area.
I think that anyone with any idea's on how to make things happen should e-mail trev so that any idea's can be promoted at the meeting.This is what i'll be doing.
One thing that i think we should have is a club hire charter that can be down loaded from the website,this should help people to feel happier about renting cars giving agreed conditions.We could also do with someone to co-ordinate the cars that are for hire,keep a data base of results,contacts and costs making it easier to rent stuff out and keep owners happy.I vote Catherine for this job, what do you think?
Get something put on the front page of the website and make a big thing about it.May be this can be used by Simon as part of the promotion.
Did someone call??
What am I getting roped into?? Will happily tackle anything (though apparently I'm bossy) as long as there are clear guidelines to keep everyone happy!
I had a thought about a tech issue but will email someone about it when I find the piece of paper I scribbled on ... probably with my blue book ... mutter ... must tidy up ...
C x
It has always struck me how few spectators there usually are(aren't) at a race meeting.Presumably the amount of local advertising by the circuit owners/promoters is very limited or non-existant. We live fairly close to Mallory, Silverstone & Rockingham and rarely do you ever see an advert in a local paper promoting a forthcoming event. The entrance money is usually pretty low compared with other sports/entertainments and I would have thought the numbers coming to watch would be increased significantly if the public knew what was going on. My point being that one source of new racing members is from spectators as we often get curious visitors at meetings asking questions etc. having come to watch the racing in general and not knowing about the 2cv championship. Would it not be worth considering placing our own advert in the appropriate local rags and having some kind of leaflet available at the track giving basic details, contacts , costs etc? as quite often we seem to be under the cars trying to get out in time & not able to converse with interested onlookers as much as we would like!
That's a darn good point. It wouldn't take much to run off a few posters and put them in strategic venues; i.e. petrol stations, supermarket, community noticeboard.
It might take a while to attract numbers but every little helps? There has been some info placed with 2cvGB, I hope to finish articles for the mag this week ... inbetween car dismantle, thesis rewrite and NVQ assesments, never mind finding that blue book ... A lot of the forum users have expressed interest in at least attending meets, but weren't sure where to find info. They've been directed to this site, but I also stick as much up-to-date info on the forum too. Is it worth putting this sort of info onto other car forums? A relatively cheap way of drawing attention to an event ...?
BTW when is the dinner dance because I can't find any of this year's copies of pace ... having an off week on the organised front! May need to try and get time off work.
C x
Trev,
If you can supply me with:
- A car we can rent (Tim's?)
- An apporpriate banner
- Some nice handouts
- Permission from BARC (They owe us the bastards)
I will give up 3 Saturdays, park in the paddock of any English circuit and sell 2CV racing to anyone who passes by.
Ben
well done ben, sounds like a plan
On the idea of advertising things and seeing the season is now a race short ... 3rd Sept is "Run What You Bring" day at Santa Pod. 2cvGB have quite a few members taking their own cars along. How about using it as an advertising type event for the club? If any wants further info I have links etc and will happily email you the details, or if the club wants to attend as a club I'll email the details to whoever wishes to be deemed organiser!
C x
Oh as a club dont we love moan.
Commentating.
For those who have made their opinions felt on the subject without the benefit of the background information please let me enlighten you.
A few years ago Christian, with his club PR head on. took it upon himself to get in the commentary box. This was a result of him hearing one uninformed, sarcastic commentary too many. His presence worked and when he had a rest from the club I took over. I have done it ever since and ony missed 3 meets in 3 years (better than most racers). I add this because although I haven't been racing much I have still been about.
The BARC and track 'liase' to get a commentator for the day who gets expenses. Traditionally they do all the races all through the day. We are usually the ONLY championship at that meeting to offer any form of commentary help. Some commentators resent this 'help' and very begrugingly use it. Sometimes there is only one mike in the box so my input it restricted to pointing! Sometimes they let me talk.
There are many restrictions on what you can say during a race. Basically you can not comment on anything which may be presented in writing to the clerk of the course. Cars make contact (A did not hit B). Cars make exceptional starts, not jump starts.(been caught out on that on myself)
I also have a full file on around 150 2cv racers so we can add colour to the picture we are trying to paint, describe the drivers characters etc. Christine sent out a commentary sheet with your club membership. Of which I recieved 3 back. Sheets were also sent round by my able assistant at the 24 hour so we had a complete car list. This took all day and resulted in information like: best result - won lots: occupation - chicken pluckers son: Hobbies - Deep sea tadpole wrestling. And these are the printable ones. While you would think this is wildly entertaining, it cant be used and is a waste of time.
As for the Legends commentator. Yes he is brilliant. He is allowed to have the mike purely to himself and that makes a big difference as he can react immediately to whats happening rather than wait to get a word in. He also has 2 assistants in the box, one to make notes of times and positions and the other to act as a spotter.
Anyone who listened to the commentaries at Croft and Snetterton should have been happy with what can be done. Cadwell was a bit odd as it the Comentators first ever commentary!
I would be delighted to carry on and be the club commentator. I could also look a being the sole commentator for the 2CV races when I think I could do a better job than the current incumbent. But it would be pointless without the help and support of the club.
I appreciate the support from Dick but as he is busy taking pictures and making notes, he can only do so much. We are looking at getting downloadable audio features on the website (a 24 hour interview review is available) although there seems to be licence issues with the commentaries.
I have no ego about this so If someone else wants to do it no problem but it really does need to be 1 person to commit to it. If the club wants me to do it fine, but give me some support.
Constructive comments appreciated.
A reply to Trevor's post about using club funds to get more members racing - sort of....
One of the great things about the club rules is that people like Geoff and Paul can do what they love doing which is making engines more torquey and more powerful. Enthusiasts for the technology and the club. The paradox of that is large disparities in performance for a club that prides itself on four abreast racing and cheap(ish) motorsport.
Pete mentions in a separate post that there is a test day at Mallory. More cost to those that want to run at the front and a further disparity in performance.
I like all the people I have mentioned and they have all given me for free data they have learned expensively from years of testing and experimentation so this is not a winge against individuals. I just wonder aloud (sort of) what the guys at the front want from their racing because there is a real paradox if you want to preserve cheap, close racing. And let's face it even the slowest of us want to race!
Might be worth asking Mad Pete or Mick why they aren't out much at present, I suspect they will give a fair reflection of what is stopping cars appearing. My reason is lack of money, I would come out if I could run, even to race where I normally am - at the back!
Fair point Ainslie. The commentary where Christian or yourself has been involved has been good, that's not what is at fault or, I would hope, being discredited. :oops:
What's irritating is when the commentator for the circuit does a lovely job of providing info/commentary of the action for one race, then the 2cv's come on and you get silence for an hour! That is what gets my back-up! No, granted, not every commentator likes having their box invaded, but, if they aren't going to attempt to commentate for a race or decide that they'll go for a tea break during the 2cv race as in their view nobody would come to watch such slow vehicles, then something has to be done.
And shame on teams for not completing forms properly! Ainslie's right, if you haven't pertinent information in front of you what are you supposed to say! I think that grants Christian and himself (or whoever steps into the commentary box) to make-up the history for that team and tough luck if you hear that you're ex-convicts for armed robbery! Yes, it's fun to have a laugh and write down a pile of nonsense, but for goodness sake boys and girls there's a time and place!
Perhaps when membership is being sent out a form should be issued with it to update team/individual info. Oh, wait ... that's been tried ... so why on earth aren't they returned? Does a stamp/email really cost so much? Do so few people actually care about trying to keep the club going?
C x
Sorry to hear that you are having trouble. Nigel's idea about adverts in the papers sounds good to me.
If someone claims they are a tadpole wrestler, go ahead and announce it. Maybe they will get the point. :P
There are a lot of things that we can do via the website or via e-mail. I find time a precious comodity and if a race report form or a commentators sheet is delivered via e-mail I am more likely to fill it in. Can we not give this a go?
I want to do as much as the next man (or woman) and think that if we are committed to our club then we should show it. If for example you have never taken a club position, why not have a go. most of us have computers so most tasks are tranferable and at worst time consuming.
Lets see who puts their hand up and offers help, if for example you are short of cash and can't get in a car then take a job adminstraiting,there will always be a job or someone that wants a hand.
If nothing happens i'll start giving people jobs i think.
Well i dont have the cash to race at mo. Give it another at least 5 years and i will be there.
I would love to do more for the club! If there is something i can do i will do it.
Would have been at more rounds but with moving house and getting a new job at same time its been a bit mad.
ANyway im here to help!
Why not do a survey amongst those that have raced with the club in,say, the last 3 years but are no longer doing so, or who only do the 24 hour race?
These are surely the easiest people to get back onto the grid as they've done it before!
Might provide a pointer to the future ...................
Pete's point about being able to easily hire cars is a good 'un - the more that try it, the more that may buy into it!
Paul, Phil Myatt and others undertook a survey two years ago, the outcome was not conclusive, and led to this years championship make up.
This year the general consensus is that we should go to being only endurance rounds, and limit them to four plus the 24 hour race.
If we go with that it will be up to everyone to make it work
Cheers
Trevor
Keith and I both favour the idea of endurance races only, and to a degree that is how we have selected the races that we have participated in, also it has been apparent that at double headers the endurance races have had healthier entries than the Sprints, which obviously indicates where those with limited budgets ie. most people, prefer to spend their money.
However just assuming that taking this direction will be the saviour of our grids is dangerous, what most people seem to think we need, is to attract those 'cars ' that participate only in the 24 hours. Personally I no longer support this thinking as it appears to me that the majority of those cars are run by people that are happily running the rest of the year in other series in what they see as proper cars! Nothing, lets repeat that, NOTHING will tempt those people out, other than the 24 hours. This is born out by other people I talk with, Racers and Instructors, most of whom express an interest in doing the 24hrs, but don't see beyond that when it comes to 2CV racing.
Therefore, in my opinion anyway, the only way to improve the grids is to entice new blood into the series (I'm deliberately using the word series and not Championship) and the sport, and I don't pretend to know how to do that,
I think that, as I think Pete intimated, that if we were to promote reasonably priced hire cars, at let's say Junior Kart meetings that might help if properly promoted and advertised.
I think if the rules were tightened even more and at the same time simplified that might help too.
Maybe we should setle on one or two Engine Builders (which appears to be the case anyway), and then make everyone use their sealed and randomly picked engines, that might help as well.
Whatever you do it will need to be radical, from my own experience of two seasons involvement, I can tell you that I can't see me ever prefering this series over my Club level Caterham races (and believe me that has cost me less than the 2CV over the last two seasons), unless something changes.
Oh well that's my twopenny worth, I suppose I will now get pilloried, but at least that would be healthy for the club if it came from anyone other than Pete, Paul, Trevor, the Hollises etc, etc.
bye
Bob
Bob,
I completely agree. Apart from I don't have another car, so I do the spirnts as well.
Ben
Thanks Ben,
The national Championship is dead. I think that's an obvious statement.
If you asked all the members that do not compete on a regular basis the answer would be the same - cost and time.
I would not drive all day to Scotland, Wales or anywhere else for one hour of driving, it's not cost effective and not fun.
I think we all miss the point, sure we go motor racing for enjoyment, but we also have to remember that we have to give back entertainment, otherwise nobody stays to see the action. Most clubs would not embrace the 2CV club because we do not give the return on investment
of crowd pleasure, excitement or decent sized grids.
What to do? Well here is my view.
-2007 Go endurance 2/3 hours at least
-Four rounds for the season.
-Two drivers for each race (except 24 HR)with equal time in the car, none of this running around the car business.
-All rounds to be held in the South of England. Bad news for Scots and the Welsh, but you have the water and the whisky.
-Reverse grids, ie. previous winner starts from from back of grid etc. This will ensure that the top jockeys have to work hard and please the crowd.
-If previous race winner wins by a large margin, penalise by staggered start. Again, a good crowd pleaser and the more they spend on engine development the harder they will have to work.
-Introduce percentage penalties for going slow in practice and/or race.
-Paint car roofs different colours - so that it is easy for commentators and spectators to see who is who (Hot Rods).
-Take 3 rent-a-drive cars to each race, offer one to fastest club driver of a previous race. If necessary, free of charge.
-Change gear shift to floor mounted, so not so many engine blow ups.
-Introduce standard cars and race cars. All standard cars to be standard except for minimum safety equipment (leave the canvas roof on).
-Do not hold events over Bank Holiday weekends( mothers and kids get P Off with that).
-Employ somebody to go to each race meeting and write report and send to magazines.
-Go to a smaller Club that wants you to succeed.
-TAKE ACTION NOW.
Last, but not least, the Club should send a monthly News letter out, do you all really believe that we get home at night, switch on the computor and read 2CV News, but we could read it on the way to work on the train.
PS: Its not the problem thats the problem its how you handle the problem thats the problem.
PPS: The next time somebody suggests racing at Goodwood, I would counsel the Club to take it seriously and at least 'phone or write a letter to make an enquiry. We could be racing in front of 110,000 people - with radio and television coverage.
Good Night and Good Luck.
Hi
I have followed the discussion with interest and agree with most of the aspects especially the positive moves to make the Club more helpful to new comers and existing racers.
It has been suggested that we might consider more radical solutions in an endeavour to make our activities more attractive to participants, spectators and sponsors.
This is my suggestion for a radical change.
I suggest that we form a working group to work towards setting up a mainly 24 hour experience. I would propose running three 24 hour races per year plus three 2 hour endurance races. The endurance races would enable cars and drivers to be prepared for the 24 hour races.
The three venues I am suggesting would be Snetterton, Pembrey and Spa. We know Snetterton. Pembrey has been the subject of some discussion and needs further evaluation. Spa exists because I believe the Belgian series would welcome a British Class bringing between 30 and 40 cars as this would keep the race going as it is also under pressure regarding grid sizes.
The three tracks offer completely different 24 hour experiences. Snetterton we know. Pembrey will offer a much more traffic congested and testing driving experience. Spa is Spa.
Our Grid sizes would be such as to remove this from the discussion area.
The Club image would be greatly increased and we would attract more participants.
I think that a focussed working group could deliver this to the Club.
Regarding cost -- always a critical item -- If we work a "Snetterton" approach, with "guest" drivers making contributions then the net outlay per car owner would not be excessive. People no doubt will work it out but a cost in the order of £1000 per drive would make budgets workable.
If a Team was made up of four existing car owners then they could hire their cars out and maybe end up in profit.
I have thought about this and am confident that it is a realistic proposition. I am not going to go into all of the things that I considered because this message is getting too big already.
I look forward to the comments of you all.
Good Racing
Terry Collier
Given the amount of time it takes to prepare for one 24hr race, doing 3 would be somewhat difficult. As far as Spa goes, our cars aren't that far away from the "Ameliorée" class that the Belgians have. The stumbling block (as always) is refuelling.
To another poster, who isn't prepared to go to Wales or Scotland to race; try having to travel from Scotland to race. Admittedly, I don't go to places like Lydden, but Spa is closer to me by road than Oulton Park (there's a ferry involved, though) and, apart from Croft and Knockhill, it's the closest UK circuit. It's a day trip to get to Snetterton.
Like Derek I can't see the logic of three 24 hours much though the idea appeals. The logistics of running a car with all the wear (damage!) a 24 hour causes and organising 3 or 4 paying drivers for each race is unlikely to be possible. Input from families is likely to reduce grown men to quivering cry babies!
Here we go again, two responses that offer critiscm and no practical input.
I do agree with Francis that it would be difficult to find paying drivers for three races, but unlike him I'll tell you why - take a look at the entry list for the alternative UK 24 hr race at Silverstone... I predict that Pay drivers will prefer to save their pennies and race with the Britcar Crews in coming seasons, and that will spell the end of the 2CV 24hrs and British 2CV racing in general. No Racing, No club!!
So come on Guys, don't go the way of the Dinosaurs, put your thinking caps on and come up with something positive.
As someone says above - Its not the problem thats the problem its how you handle the problem thats the problem
See you at Silverstone - 9th, 10th September.
Bob
Bob,
This is like winking at girls with dark sunglasses on. Nothing happens.
Perhaps somebody will take the glasses off?
Let me take one small step for mankind.
If somebody can email me with a list of all the club members, including their names and addresses, i will write to them with all the ideas that i have and ask which one thay think will fly.
Good night and good luck.
I'm still mulling over all the recent comments but ...
If all the races are put in the SE England then I won't be racing, though would still try to attend as a spectator. If trying to promote the club is it not better to travel over a wide area so that the cars are seen ... not just a circuits, but on the road? Limiting the area racing surely reduces the visibility of the club?
I like the idea of articles being sent to magazines, etc. I can remember the Scottish series having a paragraph in the (then Glasgow) Herald. Every little helps.
C x
Dinosaur Here, Sounds to me kieth and bob that you are both so full of fresh and innovative ideas that one of you should take over as club chairman and pull the club out of the dark ages (or is that dark glasses)and into the bright and roof painted future.
Oh dear!
Paul, I hardly think that the person who started this thread could describe himself as a Dinosaur, and using the title "ARE WE RACING NEXT YEAR?ITS UP TO YOU" is surely courting controversy far more than anything that I have written above. I formed the opinion that you were far more frustrated by the lack of other peoples involvment than me.
A couple of points from your response, firstly, Keith and I each speak only for ourselves not for each other or even as a team, indeed Keith is fully aware that I do not agree with some of his ideas, and that I personally think some of what he says is flawed, however I do support his right to say it.
Regarding my comments, they are drawn largely from earlier postings from Rod (Max5 and MR2), Pete (hire Mandate) and others, though you and others may need to go back and read the entire thread again to recognise that.
:D Regarding the Chairmanship comments, I tried to make my position on all of this clear by comments within my postings such as "I don't pretend to know how to do that" and "See you at Silverstone - 9th, 10th September". But please don't interperate that as me not caring about the club, though I will be even less involved in the racing next year. So I hardly see myself as a candidate, though you might propose Keith and see what happens!
There are lots of interesting comments in this thread from not too many contributors, and I think that maybe some one should go through them all and list them for further debate and consideration. But isn't that the crux of it all, how many members has the club got?, how many of them care enough to have listed in this thread?
8) As for the dark glasses, I had to give up winking at girls a long time ago, all I can say is that Keith must have an excellent memory!!
By the way, can anyone tell me what came out of the meeting over Stevenage way :?:
Hello
Here is a voting facility on this forum.
If someone wants to draw up a list of alternatives and post is a new (voting) topic then forum users can vote (once each) from the selection offered.
Best wishes
<Here we go again, two responses that offer critiscm and no practical input. >
Not true; just pointing out that (1) there are rules that the Belgians have regarding the Spa 24hrs that differ from ours (their regs can be downloaded from their website, one part common to all and another part for each class), and (2) that it's a hike for me to get to any circuit and that a South-of-England series would be impractical for me (and probably others).
http://2cvracingcup.skynetblogs.be/
Hi
I appreciate the comments so far BUT
Hearsay or historic comments do not apply to today's situation. For example the refuelling situation at Spa can be overcome with a degree of reasonable negotiation. However, we will not change our method as it will involve too much cost. But we will be bringing 30 cars at £2000 to the table. £60000 carries a lot of bargaining rights especially to an organisation which is struggling to fund this event on an ongoing basis. It is even possible that running a much more "standard" 2CV might attract more Continental Drivers to compete.
My basic suggestion was for an operating group to be formed to examine the viability of doing this. This should be a properly run project with a series of progress reports for members to consider and agree before moving on. Without going into the full list of considerations they must include budgetary concerns (entry fees, estimated repair costs, travel etc) Club Organisation handling the discovery and management of spare drivers (as per Snetterton), Sponsorship, and Promotion. In addition we should consider the position of the Scots and Irish who have been such a valuable component of 2CV racing.
Re the comment about being radical I would suggest that this suggestion is radical as it fundamentally changes how we compete. Everything else I have seen so far is merely changing details but staying with any combination of 1/2, 1, or 2hour races plus a 24 one. What do we know? This is not seemingly attractive even for experienced racers to go the extra mile, so attracting new ones must be a distinct question mark.
All I am interested in is whether the membership think the concept is worthwhile following up or not.
Fundamentally we live in a competitive age but so what? I believe a three 24 hour race series is a sellable idea. Add into this the nature of the driving experience, the relative low cost (about £4000 or less for three 24 hour races including the "magic" of Spa, for arrive and drive people) and the challenge of driving the 2CV and gaining entrants is not the biggest problem.
I have spent my working life determining and running Strategic Marketing Projects, mostly successfully! I do not see this as a major challenge, it does not compare to handling the 24th antibiotic which only deals with sore throats and making it the number one in Europe!
I believe in 2CV racing, I think that it offers drivers more in the way of learning how to handle a racing car, how to develop racing tactics and the understanding of how a race team must work to be successful than any other series available. Nowhere else can you learn and implement everything to do with a racing car, from engine through the drive train to suspension and set up. This is my experience who with a couple of manuals, a socket set and a Dremmel managed to do OK. So I did have the help of a great mechanicing crew and a driver who wanted to develop as much as I did.
So I wait to hear for your like or dislike views.
Terry Collier
As one who races in other series ...................
I'd have done more races this year if the timetable had better fitted in with other aspects of life, like work, holidays, childrens commitments etc..
I put a posting to this effect as soon as the timetable was published.
I've never raced in another series in preference to a 2CV.
3*24hour races is a great idea but I don't think my part-time mechanics could cope with the rebuilds!
But, moving to an endurance-based race series makes us different to anything else that's out there.
I've come from racing in the old JCC Centurian challenge - 100 mile/75 minute races.
The bills were eye-watering!
Britsport is even more so - and the races are shorter!
No other club offers cost-effective & fun endurance racing whereas plenty of other clubs offer cost-effective sprint racing.
I mentioned Max5's & MR2's of examples of what we're up against.
Their cars cost about the same to prepare as ours.
But they can't do endurance races!
So let's be bold & different by playing to our strength - the club that offers cost-effective endurance racing, as well as being full of a bunch of great people.
Now we're cooking, a move to an endurance only series would / will give the club a unique selling point, though it sounds as if the race lengths, frequency and venues would take a while to resolve, but hasn't Trevor already stated that that is what they are trying to get for next year anyway.
I would support Spa and Snetterton, though more 24hrs would be a challenge, I would also be prepared to travel further, if dates were convenient, for races in the UK if they were to offer races of 2hrs or more. However, we mustn't forget that the choice of circuits and organising body would have a critical effect on the affordability factor.
I still think there is a need to address the performance imbalance maybe by means of sealed engines or even turn key cars - as with Max5, if we want to draw more new people in.
What are peoples thoughts on that?
Rod is correct, Britcar is incredibly expensive, even in a Civic, but nevertheless well supported.
Good ideas.
Why don,t we join the UK club to the Belgium club and see what mix and match comes up ?
I have also been following the thread, I have no right to make suggestions as i am one of the 24 hr charlies....
I have raced in other stuff a great deal faster and trickier to drive but without doubt the racing (agin 24 hr) is better here and different.
I and all the others who have been associated with Collier Racing, Gary Adnitt Stuart, Shaun, Terry, etc started because we fancied doing a 24 hour race.... I think that this is the hook.. Basically which ever way you slice it 2cv racing will be regarded by any existing drivers as SLOW and therefore easy..( This I may add is fundamentally false!) But the perception will not change!!!
I like the idea of the 24 hour racing, and I think that the point that drivers will do the Britsport 24 hour instead of ours is missing the cost point.
I think that you could sell 3 24 hour races for £4k per driver pretty easily in fact I have asked a few drivers I know and as one said to me "well thats cheaper than a 4th drive in a shit car in the Nurembergring 24hour! " I bet its pretty competitive with the same at Silverstone.
The club, of which I am not a member, may do as it pleases and I sincerly hope that all the good work that many people do is not wasted.. Yes you all have fun together, but in my opinion you have the opertunity to take control of your destiny, but just throwing things out there without looking into options and understanding the risks is doomed to failure.
On the engine front .... we built, that is Collier Racing not me, 3 or 4 engines that we used at Snetterton this year. 1 in gadgit did 1.48 1 in Hollis couldnt do a 1.55... same spec engine... I like to think that Richard and Matt aren't too bad drivers so ignore my driving but we just couldn't didn't have the time or what ever to get it right... sealing these engines will not make the series better or gttee closer or larger grids, understanding why anyone new would race a 2cv will..
please feel free to ignore or even take out this notice
Hi guys,
This must be an all time record for a posting on the forum, 1285 views and counting, it certainly seems to have caught peoples attention thats for sure.
However, we now have the downside, a decision is required, and as a democratic club everyone rightly has an equal say, this does seem to be having a few draw backs in narrowing our choices as to the solution to ensuring the clubs existance into the future. Are we going to end up with yet another AGM voted compromise that does nothing to actually solving the problem.
As a starter for a new approach can I suggest that a group of say 5 people are chosen/voted somehow elected, it could be that they are the 5 people who have done the most races over the last 5 years and are clearly staunch supporters of the club. These 5 would have the maybe unenvious delegated responsibility to decide the future direction of the club, their decision final, no questions.
This is clearly a very important decision, the future of the club could rest on it. personley I dont think a 65 man committee is going to the take the hard decisions to try and resolve this one.
Is this too radical. What do you all think.
Cheers, see you all at the dinner dance
Philip
Philip,
I respect your suggestions to try and pull something out of this thread, clearly people's attention appears to have been grabbed by the title.
Your comment regarding the number of viewings is valid, but a further observation is that fewer than 30 peole have bothered to respond. Seeing that the thread has been running since July 11th, if each of 30 people had looked back once every day that would be over 1500 viewings, cynical I know but's that how an analyst would look at it.
So to be controversial, different for me, could I suggest that a person could conclude that less than half of the membership give a D**n. But I would be happy to see 50 or more post's challenging that statement.
I think your suggestion regarding a seperate study group is excellent, and is the only sensible progression, five people would be a manageable size and could be effective. I do however think that to suggest that people who have raced the most over the past years would be more suitable than say five people who have supported the club over the same period but never raced is narrowing the choice rather too much. I think that clearly there must be some excellent candidates amongst those that have posted here, certainly there are those who have volunteered for various things over the past 50 days. Could I further suggest that the group should not include any committee members, past or present, but should work alongside the present committee, then you would be more likely to get unrestrained thinking.
Your paragraph regarding the 65 man committee is probably the best 'summing up' so far.
No, it's not to radical, you should be applauded for giving some serious thought to the matter.
Dinner dance, sorry I can't make it.
Bob
No point me being on the committee of 65 or less as I'm a confirmed endurance fan!
I'll give my vote to the chairperson of said committee.
The composition of the committee is interesting.
I'd like it to comprise of:
Die-hard racer, like P.Sparrow
Occasional racers
24-only racers, like Bob Rice
New racers
Former racers, like Pete Simpson
This spectrum of racers, with various levels of experience & commitment, represent the cross-section that have at one point in time raced with the club. They should be able to work out what is needed to generate grids of 20+ cars in terms of type of events, location & duration.
Can't make the AGM either as in France for half term.
Just got back from holiday and thought I would sit down and read the latest postings- wondered whether I have been in a coma and it was now April 1st!
I think we are all agreed that what is needed is new or former drivers who are keen to turn up on a regular basis. In my opinion to help achieve this there needs to be:-
Advertising the existence of a forthcoming race meeting, not only in the press but why not hang a notice on the back of your car on the way.
As the overall speeds are lower the racing needs to be exciting both for the driver and the audience with plenty of close formation & overtaking.
Running costs kept to a minimum with cars as far as possible having equal performance. I am sure some drivers have become disillusioned with the steady no. of performance 'tweeks' with increased costs and technical knowledge e.g. exhaust systems, air filters, compulsory camshaft, and have given up realising they would never be able to compete at the front of the grid
Testing. Again to help those without neither the time or cash, and close the pack up prohibit testing at the next meetings circuit prior to that meeting.
Endurance Races. Where does the closest & most exciting racing occur for both driver and spectator? SPRINT racing. I say MORE sprint races not less! If you want to go round & round usually on your own and not really knowing who you are racing and unlikely to catch anyway if you become detached, may I suggest you go along to Bruntingthorpe Proving Ground where it will only cost you £60 hr.
It is my opinion that going to Endurance only with minimum no. of meetings is wrong, with no guarantee of regular increased grids, and with distinct possibility of existing regulars withdrawing. Remember only a few seasons ago grids were quite often oversubscribed but with Reserves taking their cars to meetings anyway and willing to sacrifice a full refund!
(the computer has crashed twice at the last moment whilst writing this but have preserved as I feel so strongly on the subject! Am I the only one?)
Nigel.
The likelyhood for next season which was discussed at a meeting last month will be 4 enduro rounds and the 24. The meeting was suggested at very short notice as a response to the discussions mainly on the forum board. The suggestion was that as the enduro races in 2006 were better supported; then to maintain average grid sizes logically enduro was the result. this of course has to be ratified via the AGM.
The racing has virtually always been a combination of sprint championship and enduro series. Both have their following. Various avenues are being investigated that are not available for comment through this forum board. A lot of effort which is not reflected on the forum board here is ensuring that the dinosaurs will not become extinct. The idea of the original thread from Paul is to stimulate thoughts for a format for next season. It would appear that this has been partly successful. It would also appear that no new format has been put forward for consideration.
Here is my suggestion for a new format. This is assumming that the Enduro format suggested is adopted.
These would probably be Pembrey, Anglesey, Mallory and Silverstone.
At each meeting run three sprint races of approx 15 mins duration each. Qualifying would be very short on the Sat morning or could even be taken from the enduro qualifying. Race one would be early on the Saturday with race two to be later in the day. The top places in race one would be reversed and the top five would carry "success ballast". Race three to take place at the earliest point on Sunday would be the finishing order of race two with the amount of reversal being dictated from a draw. Again the top five from race two would carry "success ballast". The enduro race to start later in the day. At the next venue the top five in the series would carry "success ballast" through qualifying and into race one. Points scored to be 15, 12, 10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1. One point for race one pole, one point for fastest lap and one point for each leader of the race.
Cost would be in the region of £1200 for the 12 race series. If you are doing the enduro no cost in getting there. If your car is only doing enduro then there is the chance of clawing back your costs via a hire for the sprint series. Likewise if your preference is for sprint then a hire for the enduro is possible either as a complete hire or half drive. Putting time between each race enables any problems to be resolved.
This idea has been discussed with various drivers so far to guage opinion. The idea has the backing so far of thirteen drivers who have confirmed their support of the sprint series. To make this work the base figure would need to be 16 to break even. Numbers above this would create profit and the chance of possible further racing. It is hoped to discuss this as a proposal at the AGM.
Steve
Could qualifying for an endurance race be run as a Sprint race?
C x
Forgive me because I am just a bean counter .......
The suggestion is:
short quali for the sprint race
quali for the endurance race
sprint race 1
endurance race
sprint race 2
sprint race 3
All in the same day?
With a 3 man endurance team, each member doing a sprint race as well ............. an interesting idea & very cost effective!
I'd be up for that, dates permitting.
Someone like the EERC would appreciate this format - they'd love to have cars on track when their premier cars weren't out because it would mean more money for them!
But could we swap Angelsey for somewhere else?
Lovely circuit but it's just such a long way from anywhere!
Could we approach the independent circuits like Castle Coombe, Goodwood, Lydden or Donnington for a date instead?
On my original post i should have specified it was the sprint championship barc were considering stopping.
I can see the reason they would sooner leave us doing hour races , as in that hour they could probably only get two sprints in , and with falling grids they would make as much from us in an hour as they would from two sprints of say 18 cars.
Whatever sort of championship you all decide to have next year.The MOST important thing in MY opinion is that there is only one (Sprint or Enduro) you all must decide and all support that descision.
We cannot have another year of both as it is too expensive .
In MY opinion the entries for the season should be around £1000 per driver excluding the 24 hr race .
Paul
Paul, is the race cost not dictated by BARC? You're not going to get 8 sprints at £125 each, I think they're more like £175 now. I think the Silverstone enduro was £300-and-something; probably more like £1500 + 24hr for a season.
I thought part of the 2cv racing ethos was "big thrills, small bills" ?
C x
I think that many People are missing the main issue.
MOTORSPORT IS AN EXPENSIVE HOBBY!!!
Racing cars of any type is not "small bills" excercise. The only difference between our cars and anyone elses, is that the Base vehicle for conversions are relatively cheap. Also to buy a prepped car, from the midfield, would be somewhere in the region of £2k-£3. Championship winners double that figure.
So bearing that in mind, it is an affordable series to buy a vehicle for, BUT it is still as expensive as any other form of motorsport. The entries, race fuel, travel fuel, food, trailer, tow vehicle, licence, memberships, race wear, etc will still cost the same amount of money as a legend racer, max 5 racer, caterham racer and so on.
We have to drop this fantasy that we are clinging to about Small bills being a draw. Cheaper cars than most series? May be not. An old Saxo VTR could be £1000 another £1000 prepping it, and you're in to stock hatches!!!!!!! BARC or 750MC BUT you still have all the same associated costs as mentioned earlier.
Our solutions must be focussed away from this false notion of cheap motor sport and directed towards Close, thrilling, exiting racing for all involved. I say for all involved, as we dont get spectators. Circuits dont get spectators for club sport days, and commentators dont know anything even if there are a few die hard fans of club racing (or even local 2cvGB groups that turn up). We need to draw current racers from other clubs who have multi class races, for example, and are regularly racing against the same three or four other cars and usually not really racing, whom are hacked off with not getting any results or even a good battle.
This in my view is one of our key strengths. It does not matter where you are on the grid, there will always be a fight to be had. Our second group of cars is usually 7 or 8 strong all fighting for 3rd or 4th position.
There will always be fast people and/or machines and there willl always be slower people and/or machines. It doesnt matter how tight you make the regs there will always be quicker and slower people and/or machines. The only way to make things 'Fairer' (not sure this is the right way of putting it) is to completeley standardise everything. This means steps backwards in terms of performance, or everone has to spend a minimum amount of money on all the standard items. Even then Standards have variances.
Best regards
Andrew Bull
Derek, if the club were to buy the track time and we filled the grids as we used to entry fees could be significantly reduced.An hour at mallory with 30 mins qualifying would cost around £7100 / 28 cars =£254 split into as many races as we do or do not desire.
OK try this for size Pembrey 2 hours@ £ 11000 /30 =£366
Mallory 1 hour@ £ 7100/32 = £221
Anglesey 1 hour @ £ 7100/25 = £284
Silverstone 1.5 hours@ £ 9600/34 = £282
Grand total for 5.5 hours racing= £1153 PER CAR
Split 2 ways £577 PER DRIVER.
However this all rests on us getting Full grids Something we would appear to be unable to do nowadays.
SO Pembrey 2 hours@ £ 11000 /20 =£550
Mallory 1 hour@ £ 7100/20 = £355
Anglesey 1 hour @ £ 7100/20 = £355
Silverstone 1.5 hours@ £ 9600/20 = £480
Grand total for 5.5 hours racing = £1740 per car
Split 2 ways £870 Per driver
For every car over 20 the club reaps the profit which theoretically could be the difference between A and B=£580 per car
17 cars would mean that those that had done all the previous rounds COULD do 1.5 hours at silverstone free.This would mean getting our grid size up to 24 cars with 55 cars registered in the club we should be trying to get half of them out at each race.
At last someone has the audacity to put the truth in print. Thanks Andrew.
Cost has been always a bugbear with any discussions about the future of the Club. Yes it is true -- Motor Racing is an expensive hobby!! Team Collier Racing was accused of throwing money at a problem, with our use of Practise Days and Rolling Roads, ignoring Team Tee Shirts! However, my running budget for car development was less than it would have cost me to join a Golf Club and play once a week.
Compared to other series we do have a slight cost advantage. True the ancillary costs as Andrew outlined are the same, however, spares are nowhere as expensive. Scrap Yards and Breakers can provide most of the bits and pieces one needs. Thanks to Citroen over engineering the 2CV the components have a longer life than the total vehicle -- except for valve springs!! The other thing is that the 2CV is low tech. This means that the mechanics can really work on the car without the bother of car management systems. Even I taught myself the principles of the engine. I wonder how many of us have talked to mechanics in Garages to see if they are interested enough in being involved with a racing car?
So we have a series that involves a car that can be kept running with comparatively low expenditure. On the Track the performance, in terms of roadholding, means overtaking options are higher and driving lines round corners are many. this gives rise to more exciting and fulfilling driving experience.
The "normal" 2Cv race splits into three main groups, the front runners, the middle section and the third part. However, this is only really transparent with big grids. With small ones there are not enough cars to form the interesting groups.
We have one race that can attract large grids that is the 24 hour race. This race, if it is managed well by the Car owners, is a very low cost event. For example, if three drives are sold off at a £1000, then the initial budget is £3000.
Against this we should offset Race entry at £2500, Petrol at £200, Tyres at £100, Catering at £100. Other costs such as spare parts, engines etc are amortized across several races not just one. So the net outlay to the car owner is down to transport plus a bit for luck. If two car owners decide to share a car then by leasing out the other car the financial picture becomes even better.
So cost is not the big issue. If we examined my concept of a three 24 Hour Series we have a situation where your normal racing budget will be increased by profit made per race. For instance Spa and Pembrey would probably be only £2000 per race entry.
To race in the only competitor on an arrive and drive basis costs over £4000. To sell a three race series including Spa for £4000 on the same basis is not a difficult thing, this would increase the car preparation budget. This would guarantee a busy track which will increase the driving experience, except for Spa where driving the track alone would be a blast.
The Market is there, the 24 Hour concept is a draw the only question is whether we can keep enough of these newly experienced drivers to maintain a traditional season of three or four other races?
Always in Marketing think what do the potential Customers want from my type of Product? How can my product give it to them? How do I tell them that they can get it from my product? Answer these questions and you can see the foundation for the concept.
Cheers
Terry Collier
Well as pointed out there are lots of ideas being thrown around.
I been talking to a few people and the thought of trying to get the age of racing lowered for our series.
There are loads of 14 year old boys/girls that either race karts or stock cars.
Can we not get them into the series. Its surely the next step up for them if they are wanting steps forward.
Maybe it has to be one of these things that they have to have a adult to take charge of looking after them?
Just an idea.
The other thing is can we not run 2 classes in one championship.
By this i mean can we have the guys that want to develop the cars to go faster then also have a completly standard class?
This given people choice.
Andrew Bull makes some very good points, particularly about costs.
He also makes the point about what drivers want - close racing.
Big grids usually mean there's someone at a similar level to have a dice with.
Which series are getting full grids?
MaX5 & Classic FFords are 2 categories where competitive cars cost around £6K & give great thrills.
Caterhams & Historic FFords do the same for over twice the price.
Why do they get big grids?
Affordable, close racing is my guess in cars that are easy to maintain & credible.
Do we offer a similar experience?
Affordable? Yes.
Close racing? Yes.
Cars easy to maintain? Not really. With limited mechanical knowledge I can maintain an FFord, but struggle with the 2CV because it's so specialist. I think this puts people from other series off.
Credible?
Everyone I know thinks I'm mad to race a 2CV; the single seater they understand.
Explain to them it's for endurance racing & they can see the novelty.
Getting them to try it is difficult.
I've persuaded a couple of guys to try the 24 hour race: one came back, one didn't.
The one that came back will do it again & more often if we did more of this style of racing.
He's converted to the thrills & can live with the ridicule others throw at him as indeed we all do.
Moral of the story?
More endurance races, make it easy for people to try the series so we have a chance of converting them, debunk the mechanical complexity arguement & promote the series as offering credible racing for a sensible price.
Marc
I have spoken to the MSA regarding minimum age limit for our races.
The problem is that the T cars, Ginette juniors et al are all restricted age events. That means that only 14-16 year olds are allowed to compete. No way around that I'm afraid.
So we are left with racing under the MSA (FIA?) minimum age limit of 16 years of age
Cheers
Trevor
Just to put the cat among the pigeons regarding Paul's posting above.
By my calculations, this seasons racing, if you entered ALL the events, would have cost you $1,820.00 (excuse the $ sign, the keyboard I am using is snafu) Of course this does not include the 24 hour race, but does include for the fact that if you did al the races, you get the last one free.
Guess how much track time that amount of money bought you? 5 1/2 hours!!!!
Same amount of track time as the proposed events next year?!? For only $80.00 more!?! With different formats!?!
Just to put the cat among the pigeons regarding Paul's posting above.
By my calculations, this seasons racing, if you entered ALL the events, would have cost you $1,820.00 (excuse the $ sign, the keyboard I am using is snafu) Of course this does not include the 24 hour race, but does include for the fact that if you did al the races, you get the last one free.
Guess how much track time that amount of money bought you? 5 1/2 hours!!!!
Same amount of track time as the proposed events next year?!? For only $80.00 more!?! With different formats!?!
More cats being thrown
The 2CV is in no way mechanically complex. It is by far and away the easiest car I have ever worked on, all you need to remember is that it's French. Therefore you need 11mm spanners / sockets etc
Clsoe racing: You do not get close racing in Endurance races. Once the driver changes are over the only people who know where they are and who they are racing against are the front runners.
Cheers
Trevor
Trevor is right. The 2CV engine and car is very retro and simple to play around with. All I would suggest is that a Haynes Manual is a vital bit of Kit.
Re the Endurance races. it is one of the mysteries of life. How do 5 cars, which have been as close as can be, go into the pits and then split up as all are suffering from BO?
The Driver change is the key. Most Enduros are won in this operation. It is simple really. If one car is slower on lap time by 0.5secs per lap but can gain 7 secs on the change, then it will take the faster car 14 laps to catch up all being even. However, as Drivers etc are not equal then the pit stop has a greater effect. I wonder how many Teams practise this? How many have timed the competition in order to set a target? How about two odd things. Put the larger Driver in first. It is quicker to tighten straps than loosen them. Have someone on the passenger side to manage the straps there. The exiting driver manages those straps. These would significantly speed up the change. The rest is up to the driver's agility. In my case this takes up to the Chequered Flag.
These things are not rocket science. Just professional analysis and practise.
Regards
Terry
well just 2 things really,
first: as i have always said if you cant afford to piss £500 against the wall you cant afford to race!!!! that simple, i remember once a club member saying they cant afford to put 2 new tyres on my car and do a race, simple! you cant afford racing its your dream leave it as a dream!!!!
second: well heres wot a prospective racer said to me the other year, he was looking at racing, close racing, looked at 2cvs and ruled it out on the maintance of the car!!, as he said i can buy a fiesta for the stock hatches and even kwik fit can fit a wheel bearing in that!!! even people struggle to get std 2cv's servied at normal garages, not every one who races can use a spanner, (plenty of examples of that over the years).
i agree with trev and terry about the simple nature of the car but to the majority of people and mechanics its not, the simplicity seems to be a trade secret, which from a buisness point of veiw is great long may it go on!!!!
so we have to live with this it will not change we race a car that can be compared to exotic cars to get maintained, so we just have to keep the series competive and the regs reliable, and thats all we can do, may be the sprint format has finished, so lets pull together and and promote this as a classic endurance series, !!!!!
geoff
ps 3 24hr races????? sorry smell the coffee and get the true total cost of the 24 hr
Coffee smells good Geoff...
Here's a connundrum ive been trying to get my head around:-
To go racing in a Legend will cost (according to Legend Web site) £20000 for the first season. A new legend car is £11000+vat +uk spec changes+import.
So why are they so popular???????????
I am trying to get a copy of thier regs to compare.
Also i'm looking at 750MC stock Hatch regs.
Hopefully i'll find time to digest them, particularly from the championship formats and sporting side of things.
Maybe Shaun MC can shed some light on these figures and answer the connundrum? Maybe i am mistaken and they are not popular?
Regards Andrew Bull
maybe perfomance equality, power and reliability have something to do with it.
The Caterham Academy is around the same sort of figure incuding a £12K car, and that's always sold out months, even a year in advance.
And isn't a fully competitive Max5 around the £6K mark.
As I've said before, I don't understand it either, but taking up on Geoff's point's, I don't think money is the issue here.
Quote from: "Bob Rice"
As I've said before, I don't understand it either, but taking up on Geoff's point's, I don't think money is the issue here.
exactly i think the car is, also bragging points in the pub/dinner parties are better with a mx5/cat7/fiesta sat on the drive, there seen by the public as proper racing cars not like them funny french upside down prams
One thing I forgot to say.
The 2cv engine has no gaskets, an O'ring here and there and a bit of hylomar. There are no Cam belts, Distributor or water system. E.g. you can access the valve train by removing ONE 12mm nut.
How easy do you want it.
An engine requires about 10 wires to run.
Alternator
Coil
Oil pressure switch
Luminition Unit
Luminition control Box
Starter motor
A standard 2cv road car has more complexity than a race car. The main differences are the heating system is employed on the road (which is a bast4rd to fit right). We dont even have that to worry about.
We dont have to worry about the gear train either or brakes, because as terry says, Haynes make this marvellous book that tells you all about them. They are standard items. Simple procedures, documented by the biggest motor manual company in the world. The even have colour pictures in new versions!!!!
Diagnosis of problems is easy, Look, listen, and feel.
If you're not sure, there is usually 25-50 other people in the paddock who are always happy to help or give advice, both at the track and over the phone.
With regards to driving a 2cv fast. Buy a road going 2cv. Drive it for 12 months on the roads. Then you will learn to drive the 2cv. Our own chairman did exactly this and he is now leading races, in his own car, on Frome chassis, with engines he's built by himself. He job is nothing to do with cars. Builds roads or summat. All credit to him. Ive said this before and Ill stand by it.
Example~: Sparrow has driven 2cv and A-series cars for nigh on a hundred years. He knows how to drive them quick. It took Mr Adnit 3-4 years to get to grips with the 2cv particulars. Robertson, Tyson, Dalston, Eastwood, Hollis Bros, all drove(drive) citroens on road, before thier relative successes on the track.
Regards
Andrew Bull
one last thing
2cvs are like fat ugly birds everyone wants a go as long as there mates dont find out!!!!
I agree with Bully.
Motor racing isn't cheap, if you want to race be prepared to dig deep.
Its no good saying 2 weeks before a meeting I wish I'd done that extra paper round !!!! or overtime.
Entry fees are the same whatever formula ( unless subsidised by their club )
With an entry of 20 for Mallory, is my arguement in favour of an endurance series shot!
I like the point about the "classic" endurance series - Goodwood Revival here we come?
I can get the legends buff if you like as we rac ethem too.
Maybe that should be a catch phrase for the club advertising!!!
Quote2cvs are like fat ugly birds, everyone wants a go as long as there mates dont find out!!!!
It's true, there's nothing particulary complex about the 2cv race or road it's down to peoples perception ... so how do we go about changing it or at least making them want to give it a go?
C x
Heres an Idea :idea:
Maybe we could all contact our local Citroen Dealerships to see if they would contemplate putting a race car on thier forecourt or showroom? Eye catching for the dealership, they could sticker it up with their brand names, and we could have a season cost and contact details stickered on the cars.??
This may be a good opportunity when the season is over, and cars are stood doing nothing. Lets put them to work as advertising show pieces. Okay they'll have to be reasonably smart but thats not hard.
just another thought in my over active brain. (and five minute tea break browsing the forum when i should be working).
Regards
Andrew Bull
That's a damn good idea!
C x
yea but, why would citroen dealers want an old modal car in the showroom? i once had my van and a red special in our local dealer, generated nowt for them only a bollocking of the citroen area manager!!!
Valid point, but then that doesn't explain why the Citroen Dealer in Paisley has a Cloverleaf sitting in their showroom. Nobody can buy it or drive it's there purely for show. If approached from the right angle it could be worth a try ... nothing ventured nothing gained.
C x
Where has this sudden dislike for drivers on a budget come from?
So, if a driver has enough money to enter a couple of races, but not enough to buy new tyres for a race he should sod off?
Rightly or wrongly this championship has always been viewed as a budget championship. Yes, motor racing is (already) expensive, but there's no need to make it more expensive than it already is.
And surely it's better for a driver to actually turn up to one or two races, pay the entry fee, and maybe forego the tyres this time, in order to keep the grid sizes up? Or would you rather he stays at home dreaming, the grids diminishing all the while...
Quote from: "Chris Yates"Where has this sudden dislike for drivers on a budget come from?
So, if a driver has enough money to enter a couple of races, but not enough to buy new tyres for a race he should sod off?
Rightly or wrongly this championship has always been viewed as a budget championship. Yes, motor racing is (already) expensive, but there's no need to make it more expensive than it already is.
And surely it's better for a driver to actually turn up to one or two races, pay the entry fee, and maybe forego the tyres this time, in order to keep the grid sizes up? Or would you rather he stays at home dreaming, the grids diminishing all the while...
the tyre converstaion came about due to them been very close well slightly bending the regs, thats how its started, so that driver could not actually afford to race, cos he couldnt keep the car legal!!
Chris,
you missunderstand the point I was making. I have no motive to alienate budget racers, but the point was that people need to be made aware of the true cost of racing a car, not just the initial purchase price. Our old style philosophy of big thrills small bills can no longer be utilised as a representative slogan, in this day and age. Regardless of what the car is and the maintenance costs, there are still other things to pay for that are pretty much fixed price items for anyone in any championship.
I am all for anyone who can afford to put a car on the grid doing so, but they have to be able to do it and we also have to be aware of what draws people to the series. If you dont have a budget for new parts each year or a mediocre develepment you cannot expect to win races, over people who have put not only a few quid in to rolling road time (for example) but also the hundreds of man hours that development / research requires. The results of which are always made available to anyone who asks.
So who has the lower costs each year? The few that do the development, or the people that dont do any development work and simply gain the knowledge or parts at reasonable prices.
This whole issue generates the question should we reduce delvelopment and cut costs by not modifying anything and returning to the situation 15 years ago whereby everything is (allegedly) standard. (Dont forget, even standards have a variance and tolerance). This then brings back the same problems we have had about policing standard items that are outside of tolerances but off shelf stock parts.
Standard items are not always equal in terms of performance. Anyone whose driven different 2cv's on the road wil tell you that sometimes you get an engine that feels flat and gutless, and others will happily rev thier tits off. Both standard items, but with vast differences in terms of performance.
Hi
Just one thing on Budget racers. The truth is that this series is cheap compared to other series. This is a point I have always made to interested parties. My total development budget for producing a winning 2CV over three years was far less than it would cost to do a single season in Caterhams or anything else. The actual racing costs, as has been said, is much of a muchness. I just had 2CV racing as my hobby rather than Golf and was lucky enough to be able to afford it.
Getting a 2CV to go fast on the track is not just the engine -- although it helps. I have put the same engine with the same driver in different cars and achieved a 2 second lap time difference. To deal with the rest of the car does not take money it takes both time and thought. The engine will lose power between the flywheel and the wheel. Why? What is taking up power? Can I release this power? Just look in the Haynes Manual at the parts that make up the drive chain and think how you can make it lighter and more efficient. You can get up to more than 30% more power delivered to the wheel following this route and buy little more than different lubrication. Setting corner weights and ride heights costs nothing but can increase your lap times. It might be worth thinking as you go round the track -- Not what is my car not doing for me But what have I done for the car! Time spent with a good reference book, being analytical and slightly obsessive produces faster lap times
I believe that we must try to keep costs down to a level that new racers can think of it as an impulse buy. It's not serious money so worth a try. If someone is willing to pay £5000 for the slowest Silverstone 24 hour car then to him a racing 2CV is not serious money. The driving experience is more exciting and dramatic than anyone else offers for a fraction of the cost.
Regards
Terry
Some general comments from someone who has raced in the past and can no longer afford to make the trip back and forth across the Irish sea multiple times a year :( .
On the 3x24hr race idea, be careful that people don't start to pick and choose which of the three they'd prefer to do and end up with small grids for all three races.
As to the regular race weekend format, whilst the sprint plus enduro format always worked well for me as I brought along a guest driver to share the weekends costs, if you get a lot of cars parked in the paddock for the enduro round as sprint drivers double up then I think it's not a great format as the enduro entries will be low.
I also think some thought as to the tracks raced at (ie suited to our speed and handling characteristics) along with a sensible calendar (nice gaps between rounds) would be beneficial. This may be where the BARC have to be persuaded to play ball with us.
Can I ask how many new drivers are entering the championship, having raced in the 24 hour in the last 2 or 3 years? This was how I came along and I wasn't alone, GaryAdnitt, Steve Panas and Martin Harold for example all started the same year I did via the same route. If we're not converting 24 hour drivers into championship drivers then that's an area I think should be focused on. Perhaps they are the people to ask what form of championship would entice them along.
One final observation, the first year I raced in the championship there were full grids and reserve drivers being sent home without a race. Co-incidentally (perhaps) we had a 2 hour race in Spa thay year and many folks requiring upgrades to their licences. So rather than a class in the 24 hour race, could another support race be looked into?
Hi Derek, as I recall we were due to have another support race at Spa (either the next year or the one after, can't remember) but we got bumped in favour of the Porsche Cup or something. Last time I went (2 years ago) they had 2 support races. One saloons and one sportscars I think?
It would be nice, though, fabulous place to go to.
All,
Just to focus everyones minds in the month or so leading up to the AGM, get a copy of Motorsport News, read and inwardly digest the article on page 9 entitled "MSA Weilds The Axe"
Just for interest, our grid average this season was 18.6!!!
Cheers
Trevor
Just to throw a few more pigeons into the group of cats that I am trying to herd at the moment;
Surely, if you lighten any part of the valve train or drive-train, you are in fundamental breach of both Regulation 5.1 and 5.7.2. Namely, if it doesn't say that you can, you can't!!
I stand to be corrected, but that is my interpretation of our regs. If it is incorrect I will propose some words to tighten the regs on this matter
Cheers
Trevor
Quote from: "Trevor Williams"Just to throw a few more pigeons into the group of cats that I am trying to herd at the moment;
Surely, if you lighten any part of the valve train or drive-train, you are in fundamental breach of both Regulation 5.1 and 5.7.2. Namely, if it doesn't say that you can, you can't!!
I stand to be corrected, but that is my interpretation of our regs. If it is incorrect I will propose some words to tighten the regs on this matter
Cheers
Trevor
wots the std weight then?????
and wots the machine tollorance on the cams??
love been a pigeon
Geoff,
not sure about the standard weight, but I reckon a good pigeon should be about a pound and a half!
Thats the trouble with you ferret catchers ,down SOUTH we have Grouse.
Good one Trev I completely agree. We can easily agree a standard by simply getting an engine out of any road car. Take the engine to bits and paint all the bits a particular colour so we don't lose them and stick them in a club "box". Go to the first race of next season and weigh all the bits and then take views from say Graham Harper, Roy Eastwood, Paul Robertson and perhaps an independent engine developer - doesn't matter who but a representative selection of people - on whether the those bits are a fair example. Get those guys to agree what is a fair variation due to manufacturing tolerance based on their experience of those bits AND therefore an absolute lower limit. Keep the box in Trev's car and if there is an issue then the bit in the box is the standard. Yes there are all sorts of potential objections but if an engine builder knows that the rocker in Trev's box weighs 72 grammes and the one on the new engine weighs 63 grammes then you simply have to find one in tolerance - even if the one currently fitted is some quirky standard item.
We could even agree that a bit - made between Jan and Feb 1967 in a little known Citroen plant located in a Siberian forge close to a nuclear reactor site that could explain why is has a peculiar coating and doesn't seem to weigh even 80% of the majority of parts - is the standard. It really doesn't matter as long as the bit in the box is the standard. If we begin to run out of production bits that conform to the standard then either Roy makes some new ones or we change the standard at the end of the year if necessary.
Dunno about pigeons but there seem to be a few racing dodos in my house sadly....
I loved Mallory, you guys put on a wonderful display of close racing - I went home a sat in the garage and cried while looking at the unloved/unraced beast. Maybe next year...
Two or three approved engine suppliers.
leased, sealed engines, on exchange.
levels the playing field and resolves all issues!.
Francis,
We are getting near to that situation. Steve Walker has had an engine since he became our scrutineer and I believe he has taken it apart to get to grips with the various components.
As to your suggestion that a box of bits is kept in my car, are you trying to nobble me by making me carry additional weight????? :lol:
in an ideal world std would be great, remember to us engine builders the build of an engine as search for the parts as close to the regs is as important as the race, thats the fun to us (yes may be sad that, make mental note must get out more and stop w*ank*ng )
WHEN IS ANY ONE OF YOU GOING TO RELISE A POOR DRIVER ALWAYS BLAMES HIS CAR!!! REMEMBER 2000 WHEN CHRISTINE USED OUR CAR AND WE USED HERS??? THE RESULT?
WELL HOW ABOUT WE HAVE STD DRIVERS
Std Drivers, I'd never get down to the weight!!
Have we all forgotten that there are more than just engines in cars.
There are more than just the basic engine components to adversly effect performance. In fact i think it is probably the only thing that is relatively standardised.
1 Suspension settings, dampers, spring rates, tyres choice, tyre pressures
2 wieght of the car and driver and fluids. (Halfords screen wash is worth 3/10ths sec per lap over cheap supermarket stuff!!)
3 Fuel type used. 95 ron standard, 98 ron Optimax, 99 ron V-power/Tesco.
4 Castor and camber angles.
5 Body shell preparation and stifness
6 Chassis type. SLC, Frome, genuine stitch welded.
7 Gearbox lubricatants.
8 Carburettur type, jetting, and filtration
9 Spark Plug grades
10 KNOWLEDGE (such as being able to read spark plug colour and make changes accordingly)
11 Exhaust system. Primary, collector, secondary, silencer, and tail pipe.
12 DRIVER ABILITY in particular car. (Nigel Mansell never did anything in BTCC but won a world championship in an F1 car). This is the only nut on the car a mechanic or engine builder cannot change!!
13 And Finally Engine.
Not only do all these items combine to make the complete package, but the quality of preparation, the amount of preparation, attention to detail, and quality of all the individual parts that go together all make a difference.
Please don't take the fun out of it by not letting people build their own engines. Part of the joy of (for me anyway) of 2cv racing is being able to build the engine up then drive (ok so this isn't on the track yet but ... )
C x
Andrew....................good points very well made
Trev, just think, you could have two engines then!
As to the comments about the package and swapping cars, yes all of it true but... you can get any number of stories both at Snetterton and at Mallory of a number of cars being very quick in a straight line. I hear what you say and there is certainly an element of corner speed and driver skill (you don't know how much that cost...) giving you a higher corner exit speed but anyone who has driven out there will tell you about the speed differentials on the straight. You can hop into the draught of some cars and stay there and you can pop into others and they simply drive away.
Why do we have conversations about depositing metal in the heads to give a better gas flow? Or the various ways of using the "supercharger"?Why do we hear about cam timing and lightened this and lightened that and so on? Well it's 'cos those guys want to win - which is fine - but is that what the majority of the club wants? I doubt it but I am often wrong (or so the domestic goddess tells me frequently).
All this is prompted by the wonderful racing I saw at Mallory. Good on every one of you. I thought Christian was playing crafty but it turned out that the old fox had it covered all the way. Damn that Pete's good!! Well done.
I'm with Andrew.
We took our 2005 car, fitted one of Mr Robertson's demon engines & promptly went 6 seconds slower with our hot-shoe driver!
Driver forgot to mention he'd hit the kerbs, done some farming around the circuit & sh*gged the steering!
Engine's help - and Paul's engine was actually really good - but without the total package working, there's less chance of being competitive.
So, by the time we've sorted out the steering & worked out why we're 50kg overweight .................. total package, as Andrew says, is what is required to be competitive.