Review of Rules

[Louis]

Afternoon all, or Morning or Evening dependant on when you read this...
Basically after thinking about the rules and looking at them for a short period I think that everyone who has a stake in the club should have a look and see what they think – and feel free to tell me I'm wrong... I don't think the rules are wrong really, on the whole they make sense and are relevant.
What I'm proposing might not even be a technical change, as I am aware it is too late in the game for next season now – maybe a review of the rules or an open forum with the technical board about the regulations. Maybe we just need more diagrams and more specifics, and rules that aren't slightly overlapping or confusing - it'll help those enforcing them and those following them.

I think that we should have a look at them and understand what we can do to prevent a lot of the cars in the series being 'illegal' for things that are really a little irrelevant, or maybe they are and we should look at clarifying these things to avoid the rules being ignored or misunderstood in future. The 'Rules is Rules' approach is needed, and was exercised at Cadwell in the technical inspections however it's only valid if the rules are relevant and have been recently reviewed. I think the club should be pragmatic about this and allow things that have been modified for many years (maybe even as long as the club has been in existence) so long as they are not performance enhancing or safety critical.
I realise I've missed the Technical proposal dead line, but I also realise that I may be wrong or have missed a few so anyway....
'5.1 The following Technical Regulations are set out in accordance with the MSA specified format and it should be clearly understood that if the following texts do not clearly specify that you can do it you should work on the principle that you can not. For the purposes of these regulations, modification means any change in the design, material, shape, dimension and / or surface finish of any component except for basic manufacturing processes, normal wear and published service or repair procedures. 'Standard' is as defined in Citroen manuals MAN108161 and MAN 30816'
So I guess we can't do a few things for example make 1 piece front ends, as this would mean the panels were not mounted as original in :

'5.6.1.1 General The body shell shall be all standard steel 2CV6 mounted on the chassis in its original position and by the manufacturer's original method. Both right and left hand drive models are permissible. With the exception of the "A" panels and rear wings all panels shall be mounted in their original position by the manufacturer's original method. All doors shall be fitted with original anti-burst locks, which shall be kept unlocked during any practice or competition. Each rear door locking lever shall be held in the unlocked position by means of a spring.
3 rear view mirrors shall be fitted as a minimum (1 interior and 2 exterior). The exterior mirrors shall be standard unmodified 2CV door mirror assemblies fitted in the manufacturers intended position.'
However it is permissible to modify the headlamp bar verticals...
As per:



'5.10.1. Exterior lighting
It is permissible to modify the vertical members of the lighting bar to aid quick removal. A horizontal support bar of 15mm max dia and 1mm wall thickness may be fitted to aid fitting and removal. Rear lights and brake lights shall be operable. A high level rear brake light must be fitted in the rear window. It is permissible to use replica plastic headlamp and indicator lenses that have been approved by the Eligibility Scrutineer. Rear indicators must be fitted and working. A 5 watt telltale shall be fitted and working on the instrument panel. It is permissible to fit additional rear indicators to the boot lid.'
So I guess this basically allows a 1 piece front? Or does it because it's not specifically stated? Another question is around headlamp bowls – can I modify them, I assume I can't but if I could then I can get some really nice units in there for the 24hr, but I guess that's performance enhancing... (I'll check 24hr regs shortly can't see anything specific with a brief scan)
Another one is the roof bar above where the Roll Cage sits, this is a modification that has been performed on quite a few of the older cars where the Roll Cage is slightly too tall to fit so the mid bar has been removed. It has however been removed for the fitting of a safety device – which is pretty common sense. It is however considered to be integral as I understand it, however I can't find a list of those components considered to be integral to the body. I'm sure we can create one of these there aren't that many parts to a shell!! (Ruled by 5.6.2.2)
Is it permissible to brace the body to the Roll Cage? Could this be done as an alternative to trying to smash a roof bar flat, then re weld it into the original un-accessible position? Is it permissible to re-locate the roof bar?
Should cars with Roll Cages braced to the body (apart from in the original locations) be penalised as it stiffens the shell and gives a performance advantage? I'm sure a similar thing has happened with a chassis in the past, however I am aware there were other circumstances in that instance. I can't find anything in section K of the bluebook about that specifically but maybe Trevor will put me right!
'5.10 The standard 2CV electrical system shall be retained. It is permissible to modify or replace the wiring loom. The fitting of additional instrumentation and switches is also permitted.'
That one's just daft... if it's modified surely it's not standard? Maybe I'm reading it incorrectly and so long as you keep the standard wiring you can tape in a 911 GT3 Loom (I imagine it's heavier so I wouldn't try it..)
How about front indicators, I think they should be fitted, but I doubt there's anything to be gained from blanking over the holes? A tiny amount of aero? Anyway the car that won this weekend had indicators or at least empty units at the front, so maybe this could be permitted, or should it be outlawed?
Vent flaps – Are they allowed to be sealed/closed/filled, can't find where it says they can be though.
Moving of the Washer Jet – The rules say it must work but don't say you can move it? Can I use an electric pump?
How about the way the boot fastens, should that be the original handle? I guess it should really, but there's very few that are.
5.10.5. Windscreen Wipers It is permissible to remove one windscreen wiper arm and blade. It is permissible to modify the windscreen wiper mechanism, retaining the standard motor, to allow single blade operation. An operable windscreen washing system shall be fitted
Mounting the steering column to the dash with the non-standard mount? I can't find where it says that either – but there's plenty of cars that use a U bolt, something which I don't really see as being an issue, but if rules are rules then we'd best find a few steering column and lock assemblies!
5.12.1. Permitted Modifications
A universal steering joint shall be fitted at the base of the steering column.
It is permissible to use any track rod adjuster that uses the existing threaded ends of the track rods and the track rod end housing
It is permitted to reinforce the track rods by sleeving.
It is permissible to fit an additional clamp on the track rod adjuster sleeves and weld the pivot arms to the hub assemblies.
It is permitted to fit a non-standard steering wheel.
Are we allowed to use Data Loggers? Ones that do more than just lap times? I imagine this is really not that critical, may even be legal.
That's all I can think of just at this moment but please feel free to add to these, or correct me.
I'm not aiming at anybody I've tried to include all of those that I can think of so that it covers as many cars as possible, some of these things are on a lot of cars, and as such I personally wouldn't protest any of the above.
I really like the way the Technical Inspections work, they're a little informal and aimed at gently pushing all the cars back to the right side of the rules, however maybe we should not just look at the cars but the rules too, try and make them as current and relevant as possible before or whilst we scrutinise not performance enhancing / safety critical rule breakers... I also don't want to spend time and money making something fit the rules, if the rule is daft and then eventually gets changed.
I'll attach the copy of the rules that I've based this on. I await being shot down in flames, however I felt this may be more productive than harassing Hollis about his lack of Hi-Vis.
Louis.

[Nick clarke]

I have just had a quick glance at your post the rule book problem seems to appear in all forms of Motorsport, to wright rules to cover every detail would take weeks of work and would be so long not many people would bother to read it, the rules are basic really but cover most areas where big gains could be made, other bits like steering wheel mounts give people a chance to put there own style into the car, as for front indicators (they dont have to work so whats the point ) I did propose that they maybe removed before the deadline so that will be up for a vote at agm, also to allow the fitting of heat sinks on front brakes lots do but it's not in rules, to me it makes sense as a safety improvement not nice to be in a car with cooked brakes

[Louis]

Good suggestion! I'll support that.

[Simon Crook]

aren't the front indicators there still only as 'the look' we don't use the headlights (except the 24hr) but still have to have the shells and lens covers so if your going to remove the indicators why stop there!

The roll cage and forgive me if I am wrong (Trevor) think the blue book says you can tie the cage into the shell, otherwise I would not have done mine like that


Simon

[Trevor Williams]

Louis,
Standard 2CV electrical system is 12V, negative earth, with and alternator. The wiring loom is your choice.

Roll cages, not sure but I think there is some text  that allows it. I would speak to a scrutineer if you are concerned

Front indicators have been discussed previously, and to paraphrase Christian, without them the cars would look like a tit without a nipple....

I believe vent flaps can be sealed, so long as you have another means of providing ventilation (I think thats still in the regs)

Data loggers.... Sure there is something about additional instruments in the regs

Any modification of headligh bowls could fall foul of the requirement to maintain the original silhouette

Heat sinks to brakes - how many circuits that you race on really require these? On the whole, you are only doing 20 minute races.... The 24 hour race is another matter....

The reason why the 1st July deadline was adopted was to enable proper discussion on all tech proposals by the tech committee to take place prior to the AGM, which is in November?  This would then give adequate time for the changes to be incorporated into the draft regs and submitted to BARC / MSA for approval. Any later would present issues with getting approval

On the whole, the regs aren't too bad in my opinion, and don't need much editing...

Cheers

Trevor

[Scooterman]

Heat sinks to the brakes are an essential safety. I can say this with absolute certainty after Cadwell, my pedal went straight to the floor approaching the bottom of the hill, at north of 80 mph. The first thing I thought was " Thank god there was no other car in the way and a service road to go straight up" I had the same problem in race 2. I was about to retire, when the car behind me spun, held up the others and left me on my own to limp around without causing danger to anyone. I was abruptly removed from Pembrey race 2 by a car with overheating brakes, I suggest this is not only a legal modification, but a strictly enforced regulation.

[Simon Crook]

Adam I can safely say even during the 24hr race that I have never had any brake issues, actually tell a lie we did during one 24hr race I came in for a driver change and stupidly put on the hand brake and the replacement driver did a few laps with it on! Maybe my car dosnt go fast enough or most of the time I use Nick Clarke as a brake :-)

[Louis]

Snetterton is not comparable to Cadwell! Anglesey will be a teller with the brakes.

My point is not around specific rules, more in that we know some parts aren't quite correct yet we set them (well the board) and we are now putting measures in place to ensure that the rules are enforced which I support, we need to ensure that the rules are correct whilst we do this other wise it seems like wasted time and effort.

Where is the definition of standard electrical system, as far as I am concerned an electrical system is what's required in order for something to work not a couple of components and an operating voltage?

I can't find the vent flap sealing part, but as I said specifics aren't really the issue for me at this moment in time.

I wouldn't modify the front of the headlamps so it won't change the silhouette, it'd be the bowl / reflector.

Anyway ambiguity is what I'm trying to highlight or maybe it's contradiction... If we are enforcing the rules and making people make changes then we should be working to a set of rules that includes everything, not just using that everyone uses brake heat sinks so I'm not going to look at that.

That's not what is stated by rule 5.1.

Car 88 now needs a bar welding back in, but lots have it removed, does this not fall under the same ideology of the brake heat sinks? Paul's car, the car I use has things that aren't specifically stated in the regs and I do not want to leave my self open to protest. ( I think this got written in the log book again correct me if I'm wrong)

[Louis]

If we are going to enforce the rules we need to be able to do it consistently.

[Scooterman]

We race in the summer so occasionally it will be very hot, add that to fact Cadwell has two downhill braking zones and you can see why brakes overheat. Anglesey will be fairly similar in terms of braking areas, but, being in Wales, on the coast and a month later the brakes should be ok. You would like to think drivers have a slightly less aggressive driving style in the 24hr.

Louis is absolutely spot on, we need consistent regulations that are easy to understand and follow. Too many areas seem open to interpretation, one experienced member of the club will say one thing is allowed and another will say illegal. For someone a bit on the thick side (like myself), this is often confusing ;).

[Mick Storey]

On brakes, Rosie managed to boil them in the all comers race. Given the searing heat of the Anglesey climate, there will be some problems there when the sun comes out. We will be running with heat sinks

[Nick Roads]

Great Post

I have never been on tech committee but the general view that has come through while I have been on the board is the club tries to keep regs simple and affordable. Ultimately we have to trust the policemen more than the law.

Trevor succinctly answered most of the questions.

On the electrical point the wiring loom modification means the entire wiring beyond the alternator, which needs to supply 12 volt negative earth, and which can itself be legally turned off as noted elsewhere in regs, is 'free'.

I cannot see why the 1 piece front could be illegal as everything is still mounted in correct position and/or within the regs.

Data logging is rampant , look at the laptops and data with track analysis people using. This can be done now for free on a smartphone and would be very difficult to police. I guess the question is can other data than position be recorded. The software is often clever enough often to show if a car has changed gear, braked, is accelerating and what it's speed is without anything other than a GPS position. Having used some of this myself the data is only really useful when testing for car setup purposes.

A video recorder is also a data logger if I was being a pendant. They often have gps in these days so they offer another opportunity to log car data.

What is not allowed is transmission between pits and driver of that data, I think this was aimed at radio transmissions in particular. Seems sensible to keep that in but would expect that technology will allow the transmission to happen for very low cost as once your phone can log data it can transmit the same. Given its a video recorder as well then it can be mounted for scrutineering for 'video' and impossible virtually to tell if it's transmitting data.

[Trevor Williams]

Louis,
The regs clearly state what is "Standard" Its in the two Citroen Workshop Manuals. You can find these on-line if you need a copy....

[Louis]

 ::) ::) I even quoted that didn't I? DOH. ;D

I think I've got a copy at home in the garage.

[Louis]

That specific rule was highlighted at the AGM so I guess a definite decision will be reached on that.