Main Menu

Fuel injection - lets make it even

Started by RLambert, April 14, 2015, 09:06:04

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

steve walford

#15
As much as I quite like the idea of it I think the introduction of injection would be a bad move really as the idea of fixed maps etc. is generally flawed as the fuelling requirements vary a lot from engine to engine even if they are apparently the same spec. this would worse than us all having to run the same jets in the carbs regardless of the engine spec.

For them to run properly a full map would be required for each engine & the map would need to be swapped over when the engine is changed.

 A fixed ignition map is possible but this would only save a tiny amount of the setup cost. I could write a suitable ignition map in about 5 mins based on the advance curve as used at the moment that would only require a couple of power runs to finalize

I think this would just increase costs for the majority of drivers and not really increase the reliability a great deal as the high pressure pumps are notorious for packing up if any dirt gets in to them requiring replacement not just a clean out.

I think that far from making things even it would spread thing out even further.

That said I have loads of experience with aftermarket EFI on race cars, road cars & kit cars so louis or Kris if you need any help then give me a shout & i will try and sort out any issues you are having


Simon Crook

I agree with Paul well said Alec - Development in motorsport takes time, and generally I think that up and down the pit lane if you ask for help or guidance you usually get it, like all of those who raced 'Pre Weber' the Solex did have issues but we learnt how fix the problem, the weber does have similar issues, we know how to fix them (even I can do it) If we start on the injection route with my limited knowledge of these things I don't know if I could fix it or even know where to start! So I would have to get someone else to do it, so that will come at a price.
Simon Crook - Back Racing in 2013
LUMACA RACING

RLambert

I think everyone is agreeing though that we aren't in a good place with the Weber.

I understand that mapping works best if set for a particular engine but shouldn't we just have a fixed map based on a race engine built as per the regs. If someone has built up a non standard engine and it doesn't work for them then isn't that a way of making sure people run the correct spec?

Before we discount it let's find a workable injection set up and then we can way up the pros and cons. Could we have it as a 3rd alternative, i.e. Solex, Weber or Injection ?

Trevor Williams

When I was racing, I built four engines (all to the regs) and each one was different..... (though all had some form of oil leak before anyone else says it!)

I am not reading that the consensus is that there is a problem with the Weber. Some people have had issues / problems, others have not..... Just like the Solex

It's pointless to increase the cost to competitors just because one person has an issue with one element of the power train. The club has been down this road every couple of years ( Cams, heads, valves, carbs etc).....
Some days, it's REALLY difficult being me!

neandethal

i know i`m not a front runner by any means but the attraction for me was the cheapness of the series (along with the 24 hour race) and the cost of parts etc after a decade of motorcycle racing extortion. I have used both the Solex and the Weber, and after a few season feel that we have got the Weber reliable but needs lots of setting up. Isnt this part of the fun of racing, playing around with jetting and AFR meters, if it was just plug and play it wouldnt be as much fun.
I would be concerned that the spirit of racing a cheap french corrugated breadbin would be lost and money would be buying results, like in so many other classes.
Surely what Ash has done for the economy class is the sort of thing we should focus on, to attract more new entrants, with lower costs. I would not be in favour of fuel injection.

steve walford

Unfortunatly all engines however carefully built to a spec vary in their fuel requirments, standard road cars have many sensors to measure, controll & adapt the fueling for standard production engines with adaption maps and millions of pounds of testing & development to get it all to work. i dont think we have the tecnology within the club to emulate that with old 2cv engines and a variety of engine builders.

Although fuel injection would probably suit me personaly I would say that any change like this should be very carefully considered as it will have significant impact on the series with many drivers not wanting the expence or complication of fuel injection.

Louis

So at the moment there's a lot of hurdles for injection to overcome but ultimately every mainstream OEM uses injection because in many respects it's better than a carb, undoubtedly they have millions of pounds and hundreds of engineers but I don't see why we couldn't attempt to over come the issues raised so far.

Therefore rather than raising further issues that are all hypothetical, I think we should, as Richard did make a list of requirements injection must hit to be considered:

Price - What is acceptable for one kit? What is the price of a Weber + a good number of jets in order to set it up and mess about with it?
£400? Is this correct? (assuming new) The highest performer should be the best driver not the guy with the biggest wallet or the most rolling road time, that's just my opinion though.

Performance - has to be able to make engine performance equal - map an ecu to a set of heads and a cam to produce a specified power at certain RPM points, then check that the ecu is correct for heads and cams and maybe the map too?

Reliability - has to do 2 24hr races and a load of sprint races.

Set up - Controlled manifold and plenum / air filter? Looks like single point is preferred method - synchronisation is a ball ache.

Stand alone - i.e injection kit all on the engine to aid quick removal as is currently possible.

Simplicity - it has to be a fairly simple system so that people aren't scared of it, it'd be nice if there was less witchcraft than a Jets and Emulsion tubes too. :P

Efficiency - As good as or better than the Weber?

Solex supply - http://www.ecas2cvparts.co.uk/carburettor-2cv6-1982-onward-2635-good-copy-solex-stock-notes-p-2092.html
I have no experience with the Solex copy and haven't asked Roy about it either but it seems there is now a ready supply but I'm conscious that many wouldn't want to negate their investment in the Weber, though this is true for Injection too.

Feel free to add to this list / change it / be constructive.

gadget

your memory must be bloody good alec if you remember pete being good looking!!!

Trevor Williams

Louis,
Fuel Injection has no place in 2CV racing, it is TOTALLY against the spirit and ethos of the club and it's aims in promoting the racing of the 2CV. Don't believe me? Read the Articles of Incorporation and Club Rules....

If you wish to race fuel injected cars, I would suggest 2CV racing is not the place for you to fulfil this desire.
Some days, it's REALLY difficult being me!

KrisTovey

I do understand why people would object to injection because I myself do enjoy the charm of a carburetor. Like Ian said, the setup is all part of the fun. That said though it pains me to see people paying to money to enter a race and spend 20 minutes spluttering around the circuit.
My view on it is that its just not going to be possible and like some have mentioned already not within the ethos of the club to try in implement it to the whole of club class. But I have no objections to having an Club+ class that runs injection if they so wish to. Say we had 8 or 10 cars in club+, 12 or so in club and a few in economy this would almost keep everyone happy.  It would also mean that there would be more of a chance for people to win trophies! which can only be a good thing? 

Matthew Hollis

Having only just moved onto a Weber after years of sticking with a Solex, it would be just my luck that more possible developments were made  ::)

This is how I see it:

It was the general opinion by the end of the last decade that it was proving difficult for everybody to source a decent Solex or get them running well.

I was fortunate enough to have a good Solex. Richard's was pretty good too. Dad's wasn't.

The introduction of the Weber was proposed at the 2009 AGM, to act as an alternative for anybody that couldn't get their Solex working. The Weber was to be restricted to certain jetting to prevent it from being superior to the Solex. I voted for the introduction of the Weber on this basis.

In 2010 it became clear that you couldn't simply bolt a Weber on if your Solex wasn't working, as the 'club' manifolds supplied weren't up to scratch.

At the first races the Weber and Solex runners were evenly matched. Over 50% of the grid had immediately switched to the Weber.

By the middle of 2010, it was becoming clear that some people were changing the jets in the Weber, as the carb was not working with the engine - I believe the scrutineer allowed this, though I do not understand why.

Over the years, the rules were relaxed to allow further development of the Weber, before jetting was tightened up again at the 2013 AGM (I think).

Eventually we realised we would have to move onto Webers as the Solex could no longer keep up. A shame, as there was nothing wrong with my Solex, though I accept it has benefited Dad. I don't know exactly how much money, and perhaps more importantly time, has been spent on getting our cars up to 'standard' but I do know it's a lot.


How long before we have a BMW engined, fuel injected 2CV on the grid? If we allow a Club+ class, those that can will, those that can't will fall by the wayside. As far as I'm concerned, it will destroy the club.

Sorry, rant over.


Paul

Not much of a rant Matt .
5/10
No swearing,far too much fact.

Louis

So another question... Did anyone spend time with a solex trying to develop it in the same way as we all have had to with the weber? (bar kris who threw his at the engine and it worked..)
I.e rolling road AFR and lots of jets / time?

Derek Coghill

Solex and dyno occasionally.

No to fuel injection. If you want to go faster then go and race something faster.

Paul

Quote from: Louis on April 16, 2015, 13:35:35
So another question... Did anyone spend time with a solex trying to develop it in the same way as we all have had to with the weber? (bar kris who threw his at the engine and it worked..)
I.e rolling road AFR and lots of jets / time?
And i thought you were bright!You're normally such an intelligent chap Louis, What do you think?


We had the addition of forced air,airboxes, air filters on necks,off necks, inverted cones, dual cones.K&Ns that vibrated themselves apart.The only thing we lacked was emulsion tubes and rebuild kits.We had all the problems of the weber and more besides,nothings changed other than a slightly faster lap time and you can get spares.