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The future – musings of an old man (except when at Cadwell)

Started by Caryl Wills, August 29, 2015, 23:29:15

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Louis

Quote from: Lien93 on September 01, 2015, 20:34:51
Success ballast, there's an interesting idea. Sounds good to me.

Only if it comes as a package with the grid girls...

Pete Sparrow

The older I get, the more rubbish I talk
(and the more pills I take)

Paul

Quote from: Lien93 on September 01, 2015, 20:34:51
Success ballast, there's an interesting idea. Sounds good to me.

Sod that for a game of soldiers,
I'm already 90kg over the weight limit.Fair enough raise the weight limit,but artificially adjusting the grid by weight is crap and who will implement it at meetings?This is apart from the fact i think bolting large lumps of weight in is difficult and fraught with danger and why my proposal for weighing at the 24hr still stands.

How about ,if you win you run 24 degrees of advance. 2nd 26 degrees 3rd 28 degrees set and checked by the scrutineer .Or make club air restrictors you have to mount above the carb regardless of your air filter/intake system for the first three places .

keith

Its very easy.

Appoint one company to build all engines , in Belgium , England ,or France , Tag them so that they cannot be messed around with . Restrict the BHP to a save limit issue a power record sheet for each engine.

Next change the gearbox , why do you all think most engines blow up?

Finely site down with your counterparts in Belgium and open up the series to Europe/ the world . Then guarantee BARC or 750 motor club (oops) 30 car fields for every race .

Reach Out if you need any more help


Chris Yates

Quote from: Nick Roads on September 01, 2015, 17:57:50
Great debate and I agree with Paul Taylor that the grid seems to me closer than 10 years ago when I started.

I have the results from the first 24 Hour I did in 2006:
2006 @ Snetterton: Tete Rouge went round in 1.47 and Fine Print went round in 1.57 in qualifying. In the race Tete Rouge fastest lap 1.48 and the Crisis and Fine Print cars had a best time of 1.55 (fine print comfortably beat my car). In a grid of 32 there was 22 laps between 1st and 10th cars
2015 @ Anglesey: Crisis Too had fastest lap at 1.38 and the slowest 2cv was only 4 seconds slower. 16 laps between 1st and 10th cars on a shorter circuit.
So it seems clear to me we have closer racing than 10 years ago in 24 Hour.

Don't forget Nick that Snett was more of a drafting circuit and that made a difference to the fastest laps, particularly in qualifying. However, I agree with you that these days I think the racing and the cars' performances are closer. Possibly this is due to sharing of carb set ups, or the greater use of rolling roads these days.

I don't think there's much broken in 2CV racing at the moment, like others have said, you can put an engine together for relatively small sums of money and be quite competitive. In any competitive series you can throw money at the car/engine to get to the front, but it's not necessary to spend to get to the front. Team Stinky have managed to be pretty competitive over the last years without using a rolling road, and the engines put together by Neil and Christine's Dad, Mike. That's one of the reasons I like 2CV racing - you don't have to throw money at the car to be competitive.

Alec Graham

#35
Some weird and Whacky ideas on here!
My figures are pretty much in line with Nick Roads' Ive certainly not spent more than £1500 per year on engines. including a refresh each year and1 rebuild and 1 new build my figures are closer to £1k per year INCLUDING ROLLING. Admittedly my engines usually only do the sprints. And at that I've never finished out of the top 5.
What other race series can you say that about.
I'm not adverse to change but the club need to tread very carefully as so many changes made hastily are a long time regretted.
what exactly are we trying to fix?
the sprint series is superbly supported with numbers touching the mid 20's and seemingly steadily increasing.  The racing is very close, just look at Peter Rundles in car video from croft to see how closely matched the front 10 cars are. Its superb low budget racing. which is exactly what it should be.

24hour Race:
this race used to regularly attract 30 cars each year.(im only counting uk 2cv's) It has been poorly attended for about the last 3 or 4 years ever since the mid season date change. Numbers have never recovered and its a bit of a mystery as to why?
it could be a number of factors or a combination of them.
Cost?
Location?
multi class field?
Late dates announcement?
not bank holiday weekend?
who knows, but the club has things in place to try to establish the reasons and then hopefully address them. we will have to wait and see.

Personally I cant see a lot wrong with 2cv engines. they aren't that old. Most of our engines were probably made in the eighties, compare that to vscc or f3 500cc or virtually any 'classic/historic' racing series and they are still pretty new, with most parts available. You don't see those boys exchanging ecu's, or chatting about dropping a modern bmw unit in for better reliability or because parts are scarce.



Sean

Oh dear Ive not quite taken all this in yet  :o
why not go down the C1 engine, sequential box, space frame, McPherson struts route, The club can do a glass fibre "Shell" that should address most of the problems highlighted. Oh and and we can call it the "Nearly As Much Fun Cup" because itll have nowt to do with 2cv racing.


Maisie

I can't say I've read every post in detail and I've probably forgotten most of those that I have, but...

... this has always been the case. Back when Chris was racing Mighty Minis there were always some people with that bit of extra cash to throw at getting the best blueprinted engines, doing test days etc. In any one-make series a good engine is going to be a big performance differentiator. So if being at the front with a chance of winning is important to you, you need to accept that unless you have the time and knowledge to build a competitive engine yourself, you're going to need a bit of cash to enlist someone else's help to make up the shortfall. And since it's a seller's market and you're effectively captive, the people with the time and expertise have the right to set their prices to whatever someone else is willing to pay, especially if it's their main or only source of income.

It doesn't matter what technology is used, what engine size, what sort of carb or injection system etc. There will always be the people who are better at getting them running and who will end up being the ones who build race-winning engines. If you're not one of those people and can't or won't spend the cash to go to them, you need to accept that you might not be running at the front and instead take pleasure in being in a close and competitive championship where you can have a good, hard and fair fight with someone wherever in the pack you are and concentrate on getting your car's handling right and your driving skills improved so you can be in with the best chance to take advantage when someone's £3k overstressed and over-developed engine goes bang ;)
Blueberry Tart ;)

Scooterman

In 1989 Citroen 2cvs were cheap and parts were too. Perfect for budget racing. In 2015 Citroen 2cvs are very much a desired retro car, the cost of buying one is ever increasing. The parts are becoming harder to source and more expensive.

I'm sure the championship will survive, there are lots of racing cars and 2cv experts, but will it survive as a budget racing series?

I guess it would be nice to see a 2cv race at the Goodwood Revival, Silverstone Classic etc. Just a shame that most of the familiar faces in the paddock wouldn't be able to afford it.


Maisie

Well, for a start even if 2CVs had raced in period at Goodwood I think a cursory glance at our after-race celebrations would see us instantly dismissed as "undesirable riff-raff" and "a potential threat to the furnishings".

But if you don't think 2CV racing is "budget".... what is?? I challenge you to find a series with comparable costs either for a complete car, or for parts/development, or for race entries.

If you can manage to do that, does the car half anywhere near as much character? Is it as much fun to drive? Is the paddock atmosphere as good as ours? Can you repair pretty much anything with minimal expense or effort and do a lot of it yourself? Is the racing as close?

As an example, I found the Hyundai Coupe Cup which advertises in Autosport.

Their website states:

QuoteCurrently you are able to buy an 'off the shelf' newly-built race car for as little as £3995 from one of our Cup approved builders or, if you fancy building one yourself, the basic control parts come to under £1800. These consist of the series marked Safety Devices roll cage, AVO coil-over suspension Pipercross filtration and EBC Brakes. When you take into account that decent Coupe's can be picked up off eBay for less than £500, it makes the Coupe Cup possibly the cheapest way to get into motorsport in the UK.

and...

QuoteCost controlled, competitive racing is the key to the Hyundai Coupe Cup which is why the cars run reasonably close to road specification with MSA safety equipment and limited tuning to both the chassis and engine. You could, if you wanted still MOT, tax, insure and use your Coupe as a 'daily driver' if you wanted.

So not a million miles away from 2CVRC in philosophy or price.

In their first race at Rockingham they had 10 cars separated by 16 seconds in qually.
At Brands Hatch it was 11 cars separated by 4 seconds.

The race results don't give detailed times (although I'm sure they're on MST) but that's half the numbers of a good 2CV grid and a much bigger spread of times. And how long do tyres last? How much do they cost to replace? What happens if you have a biff on a corner? You'd need some pretty decent bodywork skills or to pay someone to put it right because they're likely not bolt-on panels. And they don't have the virtually unique cachet of a 24 hour race.

So I would still argue that even if there's actually no such thing as BUDGET motorsport, this is about as close as it gets.
Blueberry Tart ;)

Nick clarke

If its money we need I got a guaranteed way to make a small fortune ☺ all you need to start with is a large fortune and then take up motorsport, soon enough it will change to a small one 😂😂

naughtybear

I certainly don't agree that spares are more expensive and harder to find. It's what attracts me to the series, being able to do it myself and fix stuff when it breaks, finding the stuff you need or making bits is what it's all about. I had zero knowledge of these vehicles and mechanics before I bought my donor vehicle and now have less knowledge than before!!!
Naughtybear - powered by roarspeed!

Scooterman

Obviously I was joking re Goodwood. I was making a point that the cars are increasing in value, they are not cheap anymore.... Parts will become more expensive. Being proactive is surely better than being reactive?

Those who are well funded, able to build their own engines or have garages totally disagree with me... No room for amateurs at the inn. Fortunately this moaning amatuer with the nuisance car is not likely to be driving next year- simply because of costs. I hear a collective sigh of relief:-)

I know you all read this and think I'm talking absolute merde, but forums are intended for debate and opinion. It does no harm to see things from all angles.






Pete Sparrow

Quote from: abfitness2cv on September 23, 2015, 22:49:28

Those who are well funded, able to build their own engines or have garages totally disagree with me... No room for amateurs at the inn. Fortunately this moaning amatuer with the nuisance car is not likely to be driving next year- simply because of costs. I hear a collective sigh of relief:-)

Adam, I am really surprised at the above statement. Our team is reasonably funded (thanks to Martin) and I do own a small garage but I certainly don't disagree with you on most of your points.
However, I, along with other knowledgeable people in the paddock are always pleased to help you (or anyone else) sort their cars out. I personally have done work for you that I would normally charge for in a bid to get you in a reliable car so you can enjoy your racing. I'm sure others have done the same.
As Maisie points out, there are people that can bolt a car better together than you (some earn a living out of being good at it) and some other people on the grid, you are good at things that I'm not and that's the way life is. I'm crap at many things and have to pay someone else to do it for me. Its no different.
You are correct in saying that things are getting more expensive, cars, parts, races and other services related to racing. The 2cv is no different to a Mini, Minor, Beetle or Fiat 500. As things get less common the price will go up and we have no control over that. Being reactive is a good thing but it needs to be channeled in the right direction.
If you feel that in your year off racing you could look into how to help the club control certain costs, I'm sure that there would be space for you. That would be proactive.
The older I get, the more rubbish I talk
(and the more pills I take)

Pete Sparrow

The older I get, the more rubbish I talk
(and the more pills I take)