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Started by Simon Crook, July 01, 2016, 18:06:03

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Simon Crook

Who's racing the C1 then?
Simon Crook - Back Racing in 2013
LUMACA RACING

Roy Eastwood


Scooterman

I realise I am about to deeply offend the 2cv purists but.....

I'm quite excited at the prospect of C1's being allowed to enter. They are great little cars, handle well and are surprisingly nippy. Body panels are cheap, they use less petrol than a 2cv and the Toyota engine is easy to service. There's no shortage of them about. It's the equivalent of 2cv's in 1989. Cheap, fun racing without too much fiddling. I'll have some of that...

naughtybear

#3
Go race in the Citroen c1 championship then! It's nothing to do with purist they are totally different animals. I can already see how it could pan out........ Cars eligible from 2005 - 2014 big budget means a newer less hammered car, little budget propping up the grid! Sounds fabulous to me can I have a blue one with a green snake please?? I can have a front shocker off the 2cv in about 90 seconds, how long for you to do the same job on the c1 Adam??
Naughtybear - powered by roarspeed!

Scooterman

It's no bad thing for the board to look at other options of keeping alive the best race in the UK- The 2cv 24hr race.

If (introducing C1's) kickstarts another modern day low cost series to supplement or run alongside the current championship, surely that's better for everyone in the long run?

I don't think anyone wants a small grid where everyone pays more, or worse still a 24hr race not being financially viable.

Change isn't always a bad thing.

I realise in the time it took me to type this, Ash has removed all four shock absorbers.



Paul

I understood there are over 80 cars in various states of repair,why do we need to build more cars,let alone not a 2cv ? We already have" not 2cv's "with the mini's,if the C1 builders don't want to race a 2cv in the 24hr they can race a mini. The C1 is not a classic and has no place on our grid. What next Pink Smart cars?

Trevor Williams

Why should the 2CV Racing Club be subsidising the start-up of a new racing series? Have these C1 cars and series been approved by the MSA? Have the amendments to the 2CV Racing Club Championship Regulations, notably Section 6.0 been approved by all registered competitors and the MSA??

MASSIVE can of worms being opened here.......
Some days, it's REALLY difficult being me!

Scooterman

The question is if there are so many cars why aren't people racing them? I'm sure everyone has a slightly different view.

Where do you draw the line? Some would argue that a weber doesn't have a place on a 2cv but I'm sure that change was bought in for the right reasons, even if it didn't and still doesn't please everybody.

I agree the c1 isn't a classic Paul. The problem is that the more classic and iconic the 2cv becomes, the less viable it is for a low cost championship. In 1989 (when I believe the championship started) 2cvs were as cheap as chips and easy to buy parts for. Much the same as a C1 is now.

Going back to all of the cars out there not racing. The standard of 2cv preparation has evolved to be so high that you need a lot of time or decent amount of money to pay someone to make your car competitive. Look at the last three seasons, if I use Glenn as an example he was on the podium twice in 2014 and doing very well, is the reason for him not being able to achieve the same results in the last two years down to his driving? I very much doubt it. I understand this is the nature of Motorsport but we are not pros.

For somebody like me (with well documented shortcomings) a C1 entry sounds good. For those of you who put your heart and soul in to 2cvs and have done for many years, I can understand your disapproval.

Before firing back at me and possibly getting personal, I go back to the question of why there are so many cars out there not racing. By the way mine is now up for sale.






coxm

I thought it might be worth explaining somewhat the decision to have an invitational class for C1s which, although it was taken before I became chairman, is one that Philip and I wholly support.

In the past few years, the number of 602s entering the 24hr has declined materially from around 30 cars, to 19 last year.  Many reasons have been cited for this, but unquestionably a major contributory factor is that of cost, which hits in two different ways:  entries and running costs.  There has been much written on running costs on this forum, so I won't repeat it beyond the observation that was made, and agreed with, at the board, that a competitive 602 race car costs £12-15,000 to build today.  That may be high, but long gone are the days where four mates could do the 24hr for £750, as I first did.  Entry costs are a function of two things:  circuit costs and numbers of entries.  Circuit costs have been increasing at well beyond inflation for many years; and we are a small player in that market whether we like it or not.  We have little or no control over that (although we are going to look at other circuits next year to attempt to gain some leverage).  What we can influence is entry numbers, or at least try.

The simple fact is that, without the Minis and Eurocars, the 24hr would not exist today.  I'm equally convinced, and am happy to sit down with anyone who doubts this to explain why, that if we continue on our current path, that the 24hr will cease to be viable.   To put some context on the 24hr, it costs around £60,000 to put on.   The Club has to pay almost all of that out before the race happens; and sadly, we don't all pay our entries in at the beginning of the season, so the Club needs around £50,000 of working capital simply to put the race on.  Luckily, we just about have that; however, no one should fool themselves that the Club is an endless pot of gold that can run the race at a loss.  For what its worth, the sprint series makes a small loss at the moment; but the cost of each race is much lower, around £7,500-8,000, so the stakes are much less.  If we have 40 cars in the 24hr, then the entry fee needs to average only £1,500; if we only have 30 cars, then it needs to average £2,000.  Last year, we had 28 entries; and we are going to have to work hard to repeat that number in 2016.

There are two options that we have:  increase the entry price; or increase the number of entries. The first almost certainly means that the 24hr would die out and, although briefly discussed at the board, not really an option.  The question therefore becomes how to increase entries.  Some observations:

- We are well aware that there are around 80 602 race cars; and not all of them race.  For the last 8 years, we have been trying to inveigle them out of the woodwork and failing.  I am open to any and every idea anyone has to achieve this, which does not result in higher costs for everyone else, and would therefore be self-defeating.  Please set it out in detail and send it to me.  Let's be clear:  free entries, subsidized entries etc only come out of one place:  our own pockets.  We have had a programme of tracking these unraced cars down and talking to the owners to try and convince them to race.  There is a constant theme that comes back:  costs.

- There has been discussion about converting 602s into BMW-engined cars such as the UK Hybrids.  Some have been converted, including one of ours.  The consensus is that the club doesn't want the Hybrids racing against the 602s; and I will paraphrase the arguments, without necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with any of them:  They look too similar and go much quicker; there is an upfront cost of £3,000 to convert a car, notwithstanding potentially lower running costs and increased reliability; its no longer a 2CV; we'd all be forced to change in short order or drive around at the back with no hope of winning anything.  Whatever the rights and wrongs, the consensus is that, at the moment, the Club does not want to go that way.

- Minis are equally not a cheap car.  Prices seem to range from a little over £10,000 to as high as £50,000 for an FIA App K car with some history.  Its great that they come and race with us, but it is no panacea for our problems.

- For those who do not have grandfathered trailer licences, race cars which require trailering to the circuit are a barrier to some potential younger competitors.  A trailer licence can cost over £1,000 in total to secure; and even then, the insurance for and cost of a suitable tow vehicle can prove prohibitive.

- We can go on pretending that costs of preparing and running a 602 have not changed that much:  they have; and I am probably as guilty as anyone of driving that change.  It is much harder to build a competitive engine; base cars no longer cost £50-100; there is a lot of work needed to convert a road car, or even an older race car, into a competitive car.  Whereas 10 years ago, it was possible with a bit of luck, to get into the top three with a car that you drove to the circuit; today it is not.

With a focus of ensuring that racing 602s in the 24hr is sustainable in the long term, that left the Club with only one real option:  get some other cars to join the 24hr, just like we did with the Eurocars and Minis.  When the club was set up, one of the principle objects was low-cost motorsport; and that is how it remains in the Club's Mem & Arts.  The board therefore looked at what cars might be included which did not offend the various issues above and which might have sufficiently wide appeal that the grids would increase and we would be able to drive down the costs of entry materially. So why the C1, aside from its being a Citroen?

The C1 can be bought for under £1,000; and converted to a road-legal race car for under £3,500 with all new parts, with a very fixed specification:
•   Safety Devices bolt-in cage
•   Fixed Gaz springs and dampers
•   Top and bottom front strut brace
•   Seat and harnesses
•   Control steel wheels and Nankang tyres
•   Fire extinguisher, cut outs etc
•   Interior stripped
•   No other modifications
Such a car can remain road legal, so can be driven to the circuit with spare tyres and tools in the back.  It could even be used as a road car as well.  An entire spare car can be bought for around £250 to use as spares.  Replacement wings are £29.  It absolutely personifies cheap, affordable racing, which is one of the objects of the Club.  When tested at Mallory, such a C1 was between 2-3 seconds a lap quicker than a 2CV 602; so is well within the lap times of Eurocars and Minis.

The board believes very firmly that introducing such a car to the 24hr could increase numbers materially.  It's a car that's highly-relevant to Citroen's current product line and marketing focus; and would be very complimentary to the C1 Junior Rally Challenge; so getting Citroen's support for the race becomes much more likely.  Its also a car that younger competitors associate with; and many learnt to drive on.

The announcement has been met highly positively, and seems to confirm the board's opinion.  We have had a large number of enquiries from people who would like to run a C1 in the 24hr, which is tremendously encouraging; and BARC are highly supportive.

We have a relatively stark choice.  We can refuse to change and die out; or we can change and flourish.  There is no real middle ground, however much we might all like there to be one.  If we want to retain the 24hr, we are going to need more cars on the grid:  this plan is that which the board believes most likely to achieve that.

Simon Crook

Hi Meyrick, thanks for the above, for me my question was purely out of interest to see whom is entering/racing the C1?
Simon Crook - Back Racing in 2013
LUMACA RACING

Scooterman

Thanks for explaining it all Meyrick. So long as we have fixed regulations and limited variables, I think it will be a great addition. I had a C1 from new and gave it a hard 90'000 miles before I traded it in. It didn't let me down at all, fantastically simple and surprisingly good to drive.

Glenn Oswin

It sounds to me like the latest additions to the board have already decided that there isn't a future for our classic 2cv! Maybe we should change the club name! I fear that the 2cv 24hr race will become the C1,Mini,Hybrid 24 race with the classic 2cv race club invited to tag along. I realise that the present board didn't make the decision to have this years race when they did, but the promise of cheaper racing has never been satisfied. The main reason I think for the distinct lack of entries this year is the ridiculous time and date it is and the increase in costs. If the board had the sense to sell the track time over the whole weekend to other racing clubs, that would subsidise the cost and allow us to have a Classic 2cv 24hr race with only 2cvs! I understand that the cost of running a classic 2cv has grown over the years, but people seem quick to blame the cost of car preparation, when I think a reduction in entry fees would bring more cars out......never felt the need to rant until now...

wilbot

Re my appeal for arm's, the current discussion on the forum seems to be more concerned with alm's ?

2CV's is a distinctive club with a splendid history and whatever happens should guard against going down the caterfield route where no imagination or ingenuity is required just dosh to buy bit A or B to go faster. Yes there is some of that in 2CV's but hopefully room will be left for classes within the 2CV club to develop while the basic classes remain fully supported & unmolested.
We should always remember that BARC will be keeping an eye on developments and if a more attractive class comes along out we could go ! what then put number plates on it and have runs to the seaside .......... 

gadget

12-15K ??!!
build cost seems to have gone up.
good rant Glen
G

Paul

Colin,why would you sell your car for £6400 when it cost £12000 to build?