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Citroen C1

Started by TomzZeH, September 04, 2016, 19:21:34

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wilbot

Sorry Bert I don't think you understand where I'm coming from, Mini's & Euro hybrids have either history or 2CV in there DNA and are not modern derivatives like C1's.
Personally I'm building a BMW euro ( at my age I will never get near the front in sprint races ) the sprint races are and should remain for pure 602's.
I hope the club takes note that several members are building BMW/2CV euros and these are allowed in British Enduro events only through the front door. From all the chew that's gone on about C1's the back door is not the route.

Paul's handicap formula would be good place to start along with Snetterton and 40+ grids. Good competition and good economics.

Regards

CW

naughtybear

Tell me more mr Paul
Naughtybear - powered by roarspeed!

Pete Sparrow

Bert.
You are very Knowledgeable on the subject of the club. You must have done a lot of research.
It would be nice to see you at the AGM, you could come and see what goes on. You don't need to be a member come and watch.
The older I get, the more rubbish I talk
(and the more pills I take)

BertChalmers

#18
Hi All,

Thanks for the replies.  I'd like to come down to the AGM, it might be a way to meet you all in person - I'm not that good at getting my points across behind a keyboard. 

With regards to Why I'm planning to build C1s rather than a Euro or a 602. Its long winded.

In short;
I personally don't race anymore,
I currently run an endurance team that I want to expand from Karts into Cars
I have history with C1/107's
I'm Skint
I'm VERY lazy

This next comment is going to potentially get me into trouble.... here goes.  I love 2cvs, I used to be the commentry assistant at Knockhill over a decade ago and I used to love watching the Scottish series. But I never really had the desire to build one ( :o sorry, really sorry - please don't ban me). Whereas the people who I race with actually approached me about prepping a C1.  It may sound incredibly harsh and mercenary but I'm only interested in the Enduro because I normally get people on board for races by selling them on a £ per Arse-in-seat Minute basis and the sprints don't seem to offer the same value for money as the enduro when I'm approaching drivers.
Seeing how I'm not racing I'd like to be able to cover as much of the running cost as possible. At the moment, looking at the cost of Building a 2CV, buying a 2CV , Building a C1 or building any other car for an endurance series the C1 makes a lot more financial sense and having worked on them in the past it seems to be a no-brainer.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking to MAKE money off of this, I just want to enjoy the racing and prepping cars and not let it become a huge money pit (like my own racing career was!)




Roy Eastwood

Clearly, you are in the wrong place, there must be a place for C1 et al racing, perhaps alongside such as Saxos, I hope you'll enjoy racing C1s and their Peugeot, Toyota cousins.

Quote from: BertChalmers on October 02, 2016, 17:19:58
Hi All,

Thanks for the replies.  I'd like to come down to the AGM, it might be a way to meet you all in person - I'm not that good at getting my points across behind a keyboard. 

With regards to Why I'm planning to build C1s rather than a Euro or a 602. Its long winded.

In short;
I personally don't race anymore,
I currently run an endurance team that I want to expand from Karts into Cars
I have history with C1/107's
I'm Skint
I'm VERY lazy

This next comment is going to potentially get me into trouble.... here goes.  I love 2cvs, I used to be the commentry assistant at Knockhill over a decade ago and I used to love watching the Scottish series. But I never really had the desire to build one ( :o sorry, really sorry - please don't ban me). Whereas the people who I race with actually approached me about prepping a C1.  It may sound incredibly harsh and mercenary but I'm only interested in the Enduro because I normally get people on board for races by selling them on a £ per Arse-in-seat Minute basis and the sprints don't seem to offer the same value for money as the enduro when I'm approaching drivers.
Seeing how I'm not racing I'd like to be able to cover as much of the running cost as possible. At the moment, looking at the cost of Building a 2CV, buying a 2CV , Building a C1 or building any other car for an endurance series the C1 makes a lot more financial sense and having worked on them in the past it seems to be a no-brainer.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking to MAKE money off of this, I just want to enjoy the racing and prepping cars and not let it become a huge money pit (like my own racing career was!)





BertChalmers

Christ no! I'd bin the whole idea before I send a car out to share a track with the Saxo brigade, the rebuild cost would backrupt me! ;D ;D I'd much rather run in a series where people respect each other on track than where they're trying to emulate what they saw in the 'Kerbs launch careers' BTCC. 



Bart van Wijngaarden

Hi Bert, you may consider starting a C1/107/Aygo racing club. From what I read it seems there are quite a few participants around, however watch out; there may be German dudes taking over  :D ;D ;) :-*

BertChalmers

After another event racing with the C1s, have any opinions been changed?

p.s. the weekend looked amazing

Trevor Williams

Different event to the Classic 2CV Racing Club 24 Hour Race. And no, no place for them in the UK race....
Some days, it's REALLY difficult being me!

wilbot

Hi Bert. I had a birds eye view of 24 hours of C1 racing it was interesting to note that racing a 602 for24 hours means having a spare engine or 2 if you are unlucky. Racing a C1 means having a spare car or 2 to cannibalise ! no 12 minute swop there.

It was sad to note that 602's don't merit a trophy for a class win - well done Rosie racing

On a more personal note my thanks to Ash and all the team for a cracking effort. 2 out of the first 3 cars Ash prepared without big bucks, can't be bad.

Maisie

#25
One of the Mission Motorsport guys told me their C1 cost £600. Which is of course for a scrap road car. Add in cost for cage, service parts, suspension, brakes, exhaust, any remapping/rolling road PLUS another road car for spares and a trailer to bring it on and someone to transport it. And then you fail scrutineering on roll cage prep, finally finish that only to have an electric fire extinguisher go off ad THEN have something go wrong with the immobiliser which means that while, before qually, all 2CV and even Mini teams are relaxing and having a bite of breakfast you're running around like headless chickens with Haynes manuals, laptops and random bits of electronics to swap out, only just getting it started in time for qually... not an ideal basis for cheap, practical endurance racing! Heard the car then bouncing off the limiter at Eau Rouge so needing an engine swap a mere 2.something hours into the race wasn't surprising. Road engines aren't designed to do that.
I'm sure they're ok racing cars in their own right but the idea of our 24hr race is that it should be within the average joe's financial and practical reach, should have an element of challenge rather than buying a modern car which should be able to run continuously for 24hrs without too much abuse, should involve a mix of good prep and fast but mechanically sympathetic driving as well as a combination of a great crew who have the ability to make a difference to the race outcome as well as a generous slice of luck.
So no, I don't think C1s should have a place in 2CV racing. I have no issues with Minis - similar costs, similar classic car appeal, similar tech and a similar mindset from guys who appreciate the value of racing cleanly and fairly and not giving yourself something expensive to fix. I don't think throwing the sums of money needed for a C1 only to potentially waste track time and money when something complicated fails is a sensible way to go endurance racing, especially when it risks diluting or devaluing the excellent, friendly, practical, affordable and FUN series we know, love and cherish.
Blueberry Tart ;)

Roy Eastwood

Look out for a swift addition to C1 rules - allowing 'replacement car allowed if required'  ;D

Quote from: wilbot on October 17, 2016, 19:31:47
Hi Bert. I had a birds eye view of 24 hours of C1 racing it was interesting to note that racing a 602 for24 hours means having a spare engine or 2 if you are unlucky. Racing a C1 means having a spare car or 2 to cannibalise ! no 12 minute swop there.

It was sad to note that 602's don't merit a trophy for a class win - well done Rosie racing

On a more personal note my thanks to Ash and all the team for a cracking effort. 2 out of the first 3 cars Ash prepared without big bucks, can't be bad.

BertChalmers

Thank Maisie +Roy

I'm a little confused, it sounds like the Mission guys had the element of Challenge you mention! but I too think a bit of mechanical sympathy goes a long way in any 24hr race series be it Karts to Le Mans and I totally agree limiter-bouncing doesn't really seem the best thing to do!!

I'm personally looking to pre-cannoblise my spares car to save on shipping costs ;)

To be honest coming from 24hr karting, I'm looking forward to engines that cost £200 and a rebuild costing the same! (even if I have to spend an afternoon doing the rebuild). As a comparison, to buy the engines on just one of our three karts in the Brit24 in August you'd need to fork out £800


I would like to sit down with one of you (or via email) and see how much it cost to run a 2CV, engine rebuilds, consumables etc

PushToTalk

#28
Probably not an ideal first post but........

Firstly you can't look at Mission Motorsport for a gauge on how cheap the C1's are to run. Four of the six cars (that's 2 more than were competing in 602's) weren't even built a week and a half before Spa. It's no wonder than the prep/build on the MM car wasn't quite right, but they knuckled down and got it sorted in the end to compete. Yes one of the C1's did blow an engine early on Friday, but that was because the driver ignored the big red light telling him the car was overheating for three laps, so they had to change an engine. I also spoke to the guys about the costs of building them and the price started at £2400 if you bought a £600 car and £3k is you bought a half decent one to start with. An engine rebuild was about £500 and they are designed to do a lot of mileage for that and not have to be rebuilt after every 24hr race. That makes them a lot cheaper to build and run than a 602 and more reliable too.

We had a hoot racing #32 that we rented from Ash, but we are also seriously talking about building our own cars for next time and a few C1's would work out at a max of 9k. Maisie's logic/argument for C1s not having a place in 2CV racing for financial reasons, don't make sense. I do however understand the reasons for not wanting the C1 class to dilute the 602's, which could change the ethos of the club , but with the price of the classics getting higher all the time and and the same with the price of spares and engine builds, i think it's inevitable.

Anyway, thanks for letting us race with you, we really enjoyed it

Duncan

marc n

QuoteOne of the Mission Motorsport guys told me their C1 cost £600. Which is of course for a scrap road car. Add in cost for cage, service parts, suspension, brakes, exhaust, any remapping/rolling road PLUS another road car for spares and a trailer to bring it on and someone to transport it. And then you fail scrutineering on roll cage prep, finally finish that only to have an electric fire extinguisher go off ad THEN have something go wrong with the immobiliser which means that while, before qually, all 2CV and even Mini teams are relaxing and having a bite of breakfast you're running around like headless chickens with Haynes manuals, laptops and random bits of electronics to swap out, only just getting it started in time for qually... not an ideal basis for cheap, practical endurance racing! Heard the car then bouncing off the limiter at Eau Rouge so needing an engine swap a mere 2.something hours into the race wasn't surprising. Road engines aren't designed to do that.
I'm sure they're ok racing cars in their own right but the idea of our 24hr race is that it should be within the average joe's financial and practical reach, should have an element of challenge rather than buying a modern car which should be able to run continuously for 24hrs without too much abuse, should involve a mix of good prep and fast but mechanically sympathetic driving as well as a combination of a great crew who have the ability to make a difference to the race outcome as well as a generous slice of luck.
So no, I don't think C1s should have a place in 2CV racing. I have no issues with Minis - similar costs, similar classic car appeal, similar tech and a similar mindset from guys who appreciate the value of racing cleanly and fairly and not giving yourself something expensive to fix. I don't think throwing the sums of money needed for a C1 only to potentially waste track time and money when something complicated fails is a sensible way to go endurance racing, especially when it risks diluting or devaluing the excellent, friendly, practical, affordable and FUN series we know, love and cherish.


Not been around for a bit or raced the 2cv due to workloads but attended this years spa 24hr race to help try and keep our car running  ;D

Was watching with great interest how the c1s got on.

My observations :-
The cars look great
Like the cost side of them as opposed to the ever rising costs of 2cv racing
Mission motorsport had only built the cars just before the race so where not really prepared, aside from the scruiteneering issues / accident damage they suffered an engine failure and a head gasket failure...... that was it !!!!.they had engines straight from a road car as opposed to a race built engine like the 2cv so hardly suprising ,  as from having trawled the internet most cars of that era have done anything from 60000 miles to 140000 miles so hardly suprising that after a few hours of flat out they failed . In our garage there where 4 engine changes 8 jetting changes , gearbox change , to try and do quick times, all of our engines where properly built engines.

Our car is looking in a very sorry state bodywise and is going to cost an awfull lot of money in panels / shell repair , as the parts are not in abundance for 2cvs as most people now are restoring them rather than thrashing round a track.

So as well as our existing 2cv car we are building 2 x c1s, and i know of another 2 people who wish to do the same.

My calculated costs so far based on me sucessfully winning a bid on copart:-

Donor car £250-£350 co-part damaged repairable
Repair panels for above car £185
Cage £300-£400
fire extinguisher kit £139.89
seat fia approved £260
billet bottom arms  £ 150
engine reconditioned been quoted £450 ( depends on initial condition )

so in parts £1535 or say £2000 tops

There are 2cv engines out there that cost that much alone !!!!