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Citroen C1

Started by TomzZeH, September 04, 2016, 19:21:34

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BertChalmers

Love CoPart
if you miss out try ASM aswell! (auctions.asm-autos.co.uk)


Maisie

Just to address the "rising costs of 2CV racing bit":

- Our race car cost £1000. It involved a trip to Ireland to collect and a lot of panel work and fettling to fix crash damage, borrow shocks (it came with 3) and get some Belgian arms made up but was out racing competitively at Oulton Park 13 days later. Yes, there are expensive race cars for sale (but don't tell me you can buy race cars for many other series for less than a couple of grand) but with a bit of research there are plenty out there that could be got back on track as projects with very little outlay in terms of time or money.
- We have a road car (as yet untouched) which cost £200. We were buying some stuff from a chap from Ebay and since he was emigrating and needed to get rid of everything he took a very low offer for the whole car sitting in his driveway. So there are some out there which aren't expensive to use as donors for shell, engine, suspension etc or even to build into a race car.
- Engines: somewhat specialised, and yes things like getting the jetting right can be a pain, especially on a long circuit with varying characteristics and wildly changing temperatures. But that's what you get with old non-electronic tech. It's always been part of the challenge of getting a 2CV to run right. But you can learn to build and work on them yourselves and from my experience people who build engines aren't stingy with offering help and advice. You don't need to spend thousands on building or buying an engine.

"we are also seriously talking about building our own cars for next time and a few C1's would work out at a max of 9k" - see above. Could buy 9 Blueberry Muffins for that!
"An engine rebuild was about £500 and they are designed to do a lot of mileage for that and not have to be rebuilt after every 24hr race. That makes them a lot cheaper to build and run than a 602 and more reliable too."
Engine rebuild can easily be less than that and even factoring in taking a second hand engine and buying new pistons, rings, barrels and a club cam you're probably not looking at much more. And I don't see how an engine service for a C1 is that much different to checking over your 2CV engine if you've been kind to it and giving that some service items after a 24hr race. For every "we went through 4 engines" there are multiple examples of teams who've run a faultless race, engine-wise.

"aside from the scruiteneering issues / accident damage they suffered an engine failure and a head gasket failure...... that was it"
Yes, but that "it" takes HOURS out of your track time and instantly renders any chance of a competitive finish out of the question. Rosie Racing did the whole race on one engine and even with a sizeable crash towards the end the car finished first of the UK spec 2CVs. Even with an engine failure it's still possible to win a 24hr race in a 2CV.

I think my main point is that people enter a 2CV 24 HOUR race to race A 2CV. For 24 HOURS. They don't want to go and buy something modern because it's cheaper, or easier. It's not a 2CV for a start!
It's accepted that you're going to have to put some time and money into building a car up (but there is no motorsport that is cheap and any racing car needs some good prep). If you just go and buy some knackered scrap modern car is almost smacks of cheating, that you want to do it the easy way. Endurance motorsport SHOULDN'T be "easy". There should be some challenge involved. That's what makes it to satisfying when you do well, even if it takes years of trying before you get the perfect combination of prep, performance and luck. You accept that there may be bodywork damage, or suspension issues, or even an engine failure, but you also know that there is almost nothing that will actually take you out of the race for good.
I've been spares coordinator for a classic car owners club for 15 years and believe me, we would have killed to have the number of bespoke suppliers that 2CVs or even the likes of Minis have. You can buy pretty much everything off the shelf and honestly, the parts aren't that expensive.

It irks me that people keep peddling the "2CVs are expensive, unreliable and hard to source parts for" line. THEY ARE NOT. Or at least they don't have to be. There will always be people who are willing and able to throw stupid amounts of money at any series to gain an advantage. But equally there is plenty of scope for someone with a little resourcefulness to compete perfectly well on a modest budget. I think instead of looking to the future and thinking "let's get rid of all this creaky old chod and go for a nice easy runabout instead" we should be looking at making a 2CV an attractive prospect and being a lot more open with information on costs, where to buy parts, how to work on the cars and encouraging new competitors to buy into the concept of racing our quirky-but-ideal-for-taking-anything-you-can-throw-at-them cars.

Replacing 2CVs IS NOT INEVITABLE. It SHOULD NOT BE INEVITABLE. I've lost count of the number of times I've said this: there are multiple places like Hot Hatch you can go and race a C1 (yes, I appreciate that that championship has a not-entirely-undeserved reputation for being expensive bumper cars). Or start your own. There is ONE. I repeat: ONE place you can race a 2CV. And there are plenty of people who DO want to race a 2CV and who do not exactly relish being told that their cars are rubbish and doomed to being phased out and seeing on the horizon what looks like a horde of people telling them it's time they stopped standing in the way of progress and let their championship die a dignified death.
Blueberry Tart ;)

Maisie

To add to the above essay (sorry!), look at the Minis. The Mighty Mini championship is very much like ours. People choose to race Minis because they want to race a Mini. They want close, relatively cheap racing, but I dare say second hand Minis aren't getting any cheaper although there are plenty of specialist suppliers out there and parts are still OK to come by. If anything their bodywork will be more expensive because they are more a one-piece shell with welded on parts and not as dismantlable as a 2CV. Engines are similarly easy to work on if you have a bit of practical ability, but there are also the likes of Slark who are a go-to builder if you can't do it yourself. And a Slark engine won't be cheap. Neither Mini nor 2CV engine builders run as a charity. Whatever form of motorsport you take part in, it's just what you have to accept.

They don't have the associated difficulties of trying to run a 24hr race as part of their championship and so don't have the unique issues that we do in terms of grid numbers (which haven't actually been that bad for the sprint series). There are far more issues such as time of year (with people having holidays booked), track location, finding enough team members etc that stop cars coming out and these are the issues we need to address in order to augment rather than replace our grid of 2CVs.
Blueberry Tart ;)

BertChalmers

Hi Maisie,

Sorry if you felt my responce was effectively telling you to abndon all hope, and that the 2cv was doomed to become every more expensive. Thats not what I intended.

Put simply I want to find the cheapest 24hr series with the best atmosphere that I can enter a modern reliable car (I'd like to think my prep is pretty decent) and that lets us enjoy track time with similar paced cars without having to constant worry about stuff like jetting when we've got enough to learn as it is. If the cars are also easy to work on when stuff goes fruit shaped - then that would be perfect.

To me, that's what the C1s are, not a replacement for 2CVs but simply a feeder series into 24hr 'full size' racing for teams like mine that have outgrown other elements of the sport. If we get to share the operating costs event surely that makes your annual budget a bit easier too.

PushToTalk

Quote from: Maisie on October 18, 2016, 14:49:22
Just to address the "rising costs of 2CV racing bit":

I think my main point is that people enter a 2CV 24 HOUR race to race A 2CV. For 24 HOURS. They don't want to go and buy something modern because it's cheaper, or easier. It's not a 2CV for a start!


I want to do another 24hr race and i'd enter the 2CV race to race a C1.  I wouldn't buy a 2CV to do it in.

Maisie

Quote from: PushToTalk on October 18, 2016, 15:10:18
Quote from: Maisie on October 18, 2016, 14:49:22
Just to address the "rising costs of 2CV racing bit":

I think my main point is that people enter a 2CV 24 HOUR race to race A 2CV. For 24 HOURS. They don't want to go and buy something modern because it's cheaper, or easier. It's not a 2CV for a start!


I want to do another 24hr race and i'd enter the 2CV race to race a C1.  I wouldn't buy a 2CV to do it in.

Then we want to know why. Why not hire one? And if you want to enter the 2CV 24hr race in something other than a 2CV race then sorry if it sounds harsh, but if it means diluting the 2CV grids and marginalising the people who do actually want to race a 2CV and not be overlooked in the results when the timesheets have C1s taking the top places, then maybe you're not welcome.
Blueberry Tart ;)

Maisie

Quote from: BertChalmers on October 18, 2016, 15:06:55
Hi Maisie,

Sorry if you felt my responce was effectively telling you to abndon all hope, and that the 2cv was doomed to become every more expensive. Thats not what I intended.

Put simply I want to find the cheapest 24hr series with the best atmosphere that I can enter a modern reliable car (I'd like to think my prep is pretty decent) and that lets us enjoy track time with similar paced cars without having to constant worry about stuff like jetting when we've got enough to learn as it is. If the cars are also easy to work on when stuff goes fruit shaped - then that would be perfect.

To me, that's what the C1s are, not a replacement for 2CVs but simply a feeder series into 24hr 'full size' racing for teams like mine that have outgrown other elements of the sport. If we get to share the operating costs event surely that makes your annual budget a bit easier too.

Yes, but the issue seems to be lots of people want to have a nice easy 24hr race, which I can see the attraction of. The problem is that 24hr races are a) rare, b) generally extremely expensive. And people have found our race and our championship and want to piggy back on it. The issue with that is that while sharing the costs is all well and good there's a very real threat that having 15 2CVs and suddenly 25 C1s kills off what we've been happily, and successfully, doing for over 25 years.
Blueberry Tart ;)

PushToTalk

Quote from: Maisie on October 18, 2016, 15:29:38
Then we want to know why. Why not hire one? And if you want to enter the 2CV 24hr race in something other than a 2CV race then sorry if it sounds harsh, but if it means diluting the 2CV grids and marginalising the people who do actually want to race a 2CV and not be overlooked in the results when the timesheets have C1s taking the top places, then maybe you're not welcome.

lol why do series forums always attract such keyboard warriors. Not being welcome is fine by me, but maybe it's that kind of attitude that has caused your grids for the 24hr races to dwindle. Was it 16 cars at Anglesey and 4 at Spa this year.

C1's if you are kind enough to allow them to race in the 24hr's next year, will probably attract triple the entries of the 602 at the rate it's growing, which will of course help subsidise your racing. The sprint series does well enough, but you need to look at why only a handful of die hards choose to do the endurance events, i bet most of it is down to cost. Spa was my first experience of the 2CV Racing club and everyone was so friendly, helpful and open to all types of racing, i obviously didn't meet yourself.

BertChalmers

Sorry, this may soon a bit out of place but; if its been sucessfully done for 25 year why do you need the minis, hybrids and C1s? Surely if it was truly successful you'd still have a full grid of 2cvs and only 2cvs?

(Prepared to receive the Ban-hammer for that one)

In the medium to short term while everyone promotes 2cv racing and the challenges involved in it and tries bring more people in, get more cars out of garages and back on the grid, I think you might need to view C1s as a 'necessary evil'  (I mean its not like I'm asking you to accept an Aygo!!) so that there is a year 26 and a year 27  and so on

Maisie

Quote from: PushToTalk on October 18, 2016, 15:51:44
Quote from: Maisie on October 18, 2016, 15:29:38
Then we want to know why. Why not hire one? And if you want to enter the 2CV 24hr race in something other than a 2CV race then sorry if it sounds harsh, but if it means diluting the 2CV grids and marginalising the people who do actually want to race a 2CV and not be overlooked in the results when the timesheets have C1s taking the top places, then maybe you're not welcome.

lol why do series forums always attract such keyboard warriors. Not being welcome is fine by me, but maybe it's that kind of attitude that has caused your grids for the 24hr races to dwindle. Was it 16 cars at Anglesey and 4 at Spa this year.

OK, so maybe my words were a little harsh, but indicate the depth of feeling. And you would have seen me around the garage even if I didn't speak to you, and I like to think I'm generally fairly friendly. The "you" wasn't necessarily aimed at you personally. This year's Anglesey race had unique factors which didn't help grid sizes. Circuit choice, date, late organisation and particularly unfavourable start and finish times put a lot of people off. You can't really scoff at 4 cars at Spa given that it's not part of the championship and takes a lot more time, money and effort to get to than our own race.

QuoteC1's if you are kind enough to allow them to race in the 24hr's next year, will probably attract triple the entries of the 602 at the rate it's growing, which will of course help subsidise your racing.

Not disputing that, but you must see that it runs the risk of the 602 then becoming the non-dominant category which will do the attractiveness of racing one no future good whatsoever.

QuoteThe sprint series does well enough, but you need to look at why only a handful of die hards choose to do the endurance events, i bet most of it is down to cost. Spa was my first experience of the 2CV Racing club and everyone was so friendly, helpful and open to all types of racing, i obviously didn't meet yourself.

As I said above, it's not just cost that's the factor, which you of course can't know if you haven't been involved before. And I'm happy that you got a taste of why people DO love 2CV racing - because people are so friendly and welcoming. And we want that to continue.

This is how I see it;
- People want to race for 24hrs.
- People want to race cheaply, and they want a car that pretty much runs itself.
- There are very few 24hr races available worldwide, let alone in the UK.
- Those 24hr races that are available, eg Britcar, are very much more expensive and for generally speaking fairly high-tech machinery with associated complications and costs.

So if you want to race in the Citroen 2CV 24hr race, it would be nice if you supported the organising club by actually racing a 2CV. If there are sufficient numbers wanting to race cheap modern road cars then, if we can organise a 24hr race for our relatively small numbers of quirky old cars, surely there's scope for a separate race for modern machinery instead of piggy-backing on ours and potentially swamping it.


Blueberry Tart ;)

Maisie

Quote from: BertChalmers on October 18, 2016, 15:59:01
Sorry, this may soon a bit out of place but; if its been sucessfully done for 25 year why do you need the minis, hybrids and C1s? Surely if it was truly successful you'd still have a full grid of 2cvs and only 2cvs?

(Prepared to receive the Ban-hammer for that one)

It's a very good point, and you have every right to point it out. As I've said in my previous post, this year was a particularly low point for various reasons, but we're working on better things for next year. Minis at least have classic appeal, similar tech level and similar performance and haven't entered in huge numbers. The C1 was a last-minute decision when things were looking a lot bleaker than they actually ended up being.

QuoteIn the medium to short term while everyone promotes 2cv racing and the challenges involved in it and tries bring more people in, get more cars out of garages and back on the grid, I think you might need to view C1s as a 'necessary evil'  (I mean its not like I'm asking you to accept an Aygo!!) so that there is a year 26 and a year 27  and so on

See above. It was a necessary evil for this year, but what we don't want is for it to open the floodgates for lots of cars which then outnumber and render our own obsolete.
Blueberry Tart ;)

Nick Roads

#41
comments seem fair and balanced to me for what its worth so far! Big grids is a worthy ambition.

I think Rosie Racing car only used one engine in both of the last years. My car only had a carb fire on my car which necessitated an engine change when it ran in the Club class for 3 years so agree with Maisie it does not have to be expensive to race a 2CV. The classiques are very reliable - its the tuning and fettling that adds to the costs for all the other series.

On the question of cost then in the UK 2CV hybrids we have not had one BMW engine fail in any car and have now clocked up well over 250 hours of track time. All 4 cars finished in top 30 - see attached for results. Car 40 ran an engine that came off ebay for £ 50 for the whole of the race and testing. My car had 1 gearbox failure last year but none of the cars had a gearbox failure this year. We are all running 2cv/dyane original gears and housings with careful preparation by Rick Pembro.

2 flywheels failed after having been raced last year on each of the Crisis cars in testing this year but they were too lightened we feel and had been used with 602 engines for over 5 years. Now running and would recommend non slotted lightened flywheels. Car 36 engine not only survived the bell housing cracking and flywheel failure it was the only engine the car has had so has now done 2 x 24 , 1 x 6 hour races and testing / qualifying hours without any problems.

We are working through other issues having run the hybrids in UK class cars but none of them seem too expensive to fix chatting them through coming home - 3 fuel caps vibrated off 3 of the cars, 2 wheels failed on mine, Gadget needs a few bolts replaced, there were a few crashes so cosmetic repairs but all 4 cars finished in a state they can be driven away without requiring significant expense to compete next year and were all in the top 30 of the original 73. The exhausts (4 different types tried this year) and drive shafts all survived much better than in 2015 so we have made a lot of progress.

It has not been as easy as it might have been and certainly takes more time to convert than initially intended but Car 36 has demonstrated that you can go 602->BMW->602->BMW and will be back as 602 next year without difficulty. Its the initial work that is time consuming but then all race preparation is like that.  

Caryl and Pete can sell kits to convert a standard UK class to a Hybrid. I would estimate it cost £ 3000 to convert my car as I wanted to get as reliable parts as I could so engines cost £ 700 (I have 2) and 2 gearbox conversions take up a lot of the budget. This included getting some help to actually put it all in. It cost less than £ 1000 for the various changes/ upgrades for this year on my car and next year will be considerably less, assuming I simply need a new housing for the gearbox housing the flywheel destroyed and I will then have 2 of every hybrid part. Car 40 was converted at a much lower cost and Paul will no doubt help advise anyone on how he did it. The Club class car must be in good condition alongside the conversion for all its suspension parts and arms etc for safety and reliability so not suggesting anyone bought a roadcar, fitted a kit and took it endurance racing which seems to be part of the attraction for the C1 and as noted in this thread is an impressive outcome for them. It would be interesting to hear from Mission as to why they did not continue with the Club class 2CV but decided to invest all that money in a C1 given they did race a club class 2CV at Spa a few years ago and believe they have one in a garage somewhere.

The UK hybrid goes round faster than a C1 despite being on standard club class tyres and running air restrictors (30%) and thus could go quicker if required in future years at very little extra cost.  Another reason to go to UK hybrid for me was I like racing at Spa and the Euros are a lot quicker than Club class and that can be quite challenging and frustrating as a result.

It is also far from clear as to whether the C1 can race next year at either 24 hour race as will need approval by the organisers of each race. Entry costs may vary considerably as well from this year as both series were accepting C1's a a trial. Similar issue for the UK Hybrid but 2CVRT will obviously prefer a UK hybrid to a C1 as its much closer to a 2CV and that is what brings in the spectators and is closer to their history.


Simon Crook

With so much talk about the C1s both on here and over the weekend at SPA - After a very long time out of racing I ended up choosing to join the Classic 2cv Racing Club  the main for me was, I wanted to race in a one make series that was/is fun to race, also that I a relative novice (compared to some) could work on the car which is simple to maintain, easy to get parts for - yes easy to get parts for, apart from still finding them cheaply we have one of our title sponsors ECAS along with other suppliers doing a great job still getting these new parts, I never have once struggled to get parts. A well built race engine yes can cost upwards of £1500.00, We have never been one of the fastest cars out on the grid (except when Pete Sparrow drove it at Mallory) we have always had a smartly turned out car (lots of people have said it) in fact - Push to talk you where in it over the weekend at SPA - I really don't care what the C1's do to be honest, I hope they grow to a great one make series, I like many within the club do not think they have a place within the Classic 2cv Racing Club, our 24hr race along with our club is special, its been running a long time now which says something about its members both old and new, I have only been involved with the club since 2009 and in that time I have seen some people move on/retire along with new racers coming along, like me I am sure by being attracted to racing a 2CV. Team Lumaca Racing #58 are currently building a new 2cv for next season and will carry on supporting the club wherever I/we can.

Simon    
Simon Crook - Back Racing in 2013
LUMACA RACING

Louis

Quote from: BertChalmers on October 18, 2016, 13:07:00



I would like to sit down with one of you (or via email) and see how much it cost to run a 2CV, engine rebuilds, consumables etc

Costa? I'm back in on Friday..

BertChalmers

#44
Busy friday, Monday?