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Citroen C1

Started by TomzZeH, September 04, 2016, 19:21:34

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Derek Coghill

"There are 2cv engines out there that cost that much alone"

I was offered an engine and gearbox from a road car for £150 recently I thought that was a bit steep, but then again I don't need the gearbox.

New panels are available from ECAS for pretty much every part of the 2CV; if your preparation's good and you remember that it's a non-contact sport, then you'll get plenty of time out of them.

Likewise engine parts; everything's available. I spent quite a while with fairly lightly-modified engines in the hotly-contested race not to be last, but once you do get into building them more carefully it's quite fun.

After almost 20 years of doing this, I've just won my first trophy for finishing well (karting excepted).

Anyway, the older equivalent is probably the Austin 7 and they're still going strong.

BertChalmers

Once out of the car (granted more difficult in a C1) the 1kr is an incredibly simple engine. Earlier the 2cv engine was likened to the mini's A series. well the even though its fuel injected and has basic variable valve timing, they actually bolt together easier than longbridge's finest!

Controversial statement:
The C1 is the spiritual successor to the 2CV in terms of its design ethos... Simple transport for the masses, function over form yet its function begets it's form.... 


(lobs hand granade and runs)

Chris Yates

Many have claimed to be the successor to the 2cv.

Point is, we can still get parts and can still race 2cvs. So we don't need successors, thanks.

Trevor Williams

#48
If you want to race a modern car, which C1 is, please do so, just not in the Classic 2CV Racing Club championship race.
I'm sure Creventic will welcome you.....
Some days, it's REALLY difficult being me!

Martin Harrold

Always remember. The clue is in the Club name - the Classic 2CV Racing Club. There are loads of other motor racing clubs, series and championships. This one happens to be for people who want to enjoy preparing and racing the quirky and iconic Citroen 2CV 602cc. If anyone wants to race something else, then that's fine, just go off and do it.
2CV Team LION
2CVParts.com Champions 2014, 2015, 2018, 2019, 2021 & 2022
CITROEN 2CV 24 Hour race winners, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2020, 2021 & 2022
m: 07973 303982

Louis

Quote from: BertChalmers on October 18, 2016, 20:28:31
Busy friday, Monday?

Out again Monday, but about thereafter as it stands.

indigorallye

I've just read the article on Bridge to Gantry, regarding the C1 at Spa, and I thought I'd do a little research into it.
Unfortunately I ended up on this thread!
I'm surprised at the hostility towards the idea if I'm honest.
I've been looking at the entry lists:
22 cars at Brands Hatch
20 at Cadwell Park
18 at Oulton Park
I think there is enough room for 'another class.'
I'm not sure how that would dilute 2CV entries.

It seems that the 2CV fans are die hard, and good on you. A C1 racer is probably a different animal to a 2CV racer, as the history is not relevant to them.
But I think it is blinkered to think that you can maintain grid sizes as the cars get older, and more valuable.
I would see the C1 as a support to your racing, not a replacement.

Chris Yates

Quote from: indigorallye on October 19, 2016, 09:21:30
I think there is enough room for 'another class.'
I'm not sure how that would dilute 2CV entries.

Whenever you add a faster class to a competitive championship, it invariably takes competitors away from the slower classes. This has been demonstrated time and time again in other championships. Basically, competitive people like to be at the top of the timing sheets, not the bottom!

Our club has tried to introduce an 'Eco class', in which many of the modifications that were viewed as being expensive were removed - standard flywheels, original carb, standard cam - and entry fees were discounted. But despite being cheaper to enter and run the cars, take-up on this has been very minimal. Only one or two cars have entered the class. A strong reason for this is that the cars are much slower, and therefore people don't want to enter when there's pretty much no chance they can win.

If we allow more faster cars into our racing, it basically sends out the message that you can't compete until you get the newer, faster car. That isn't what our racing is, or should be about.

If we were to allow the C1, it would have to be on the proviso that it would need to be SLOWER than a 2cv. Would you still all want to join in then?

BertChalmers

Quote from: Chris Yates on October 19, 2016, 09:37:49
Quote from: indigorallye on October 19, 2016, 09:21:30
I think there is enough room for 'another class.'
I'm not sure how that would dilute 2CV entries.

Whenever you add a faster class to a competitive championship, it invariably takes competitors away from the slower classes. This has been demonstrated time and time again in other championships. Basically, competitive people like to be at the top of the timing sheets, not the bottom!

Our club has tried to introduce an 'Eco class', in which many of the modifications that were viewed as being expensive were removed - standard flywheels, original carb, standard cam - and entry fees were discounted. But despite being cheaper to enter and run the cars, take-up on this has been very minimal. Only one or two cars have entered the class. A strong reason for this is that the cars are much slower, and therefore people don't want to enter when there's pretty much no chance they can win.

If we allow more faster cars into our racing, it basically sends out the message that you can't compete until you get the newer, faster car. That isn't what our racing is, or should be about.

If we were to allow the C1, it would have to be on the proviso that it would need to be SLOWER than a 2cv. Would you still all want to join in then?

As the outsider here can I make yet another controversial statement?

As mentioned above the club has:
* introduced the Eco Class to help reduce the cost of 2CV racing and help level the playing field,
* you've discounted entry fees for the Eco Class to help bring people in
* Allowed the bmw engines, to get rid of the stigma that the original engines may be awkward to get dialled in for the novice
*many many other things

and still this year alone the entry lists seems to be going down:
Quote from: indigorallye on October 19, 2016, 09:21:30

22 cars at Brands Hatch
20 at Cadwell Park
18 at Oulton Park
I think there is enough room for 'another class.'
I'm not sure how that would dilute 2CV entries.


Everything you've done so far is aimed at those already IN the 2CV fraternity. The things is outside the die hard fans I think there are fewer and fewer people who want to race 2CVs.
Nobody outside of 2CVs know how much the tuning parts banned from the ECO class cost relative to the allowed ones, No-one outside knows that carbing a 2CV lump is a knack to be learned and why a BMW engine is a better/easier to live with otpion. Your target audience seems to be:

1. 2cv enthusiasts (sadly a reducing group due to fewer and fewer being on the road)
2. 2cv enthusiasts who want to race a 2cv (a pretty thin tip of an already narrowing wedge)
3. people looking for cheap racing

I am your target audience for getting more cars on the grid. I have a budget, not a vast one, I want to go racing. I want to get as much racing out of my money as I can. I love 2cvs and I love watching 2cv racing.

Now take into account that I have the modern sensibility of an incredibly short attention span - like a lot of the potential audience who COULD put a 2cv back on the grid.  Compare the C1 regs with those of the 2CVs. How much knowledge of the history of the 2CV and variants is required and how much research you have to do (WTF are Pembro gearboxes? or Belgian arms??). I love watching 2CVs and 2CV racing and I more than have the technical ability to build one and run one....  but I wouldn't

I love the die-hard 2CV loyalists and their passion, but C1s are not here to take over. If you want to race a 602, you'll race a 602, if being at the sharp end was a major concern you'd be in a euro hybrid by now or a different series all together.



Roy Eastwood

The need to keep the UK BMW powered 2cv cars down to 602cc speed should also be considered (if they become permitted) - otherwise we'll just have slow 2cvs and fast 2cvs - the winner will always be the faster BMW powered - unless the club introduces unwritten, unsporting BTCC regs on blocking and bashing  :(

Quote from: Chris Yates on October 19, 2016, 09:37:49
Quote from: indigorallye on October 19, 2016, 09:21:30
I think there is enough room for 'another class.'
I'm not sure how that would dilute 2CV entries.

Whenever you add a faster class to a competitive championship, it invariably takes competitors away from the slower classes. This has been demonstrated time and time again in other championships. Basically, competitive people like to be at the top of the timing sheets, not the bottom!

Our club has tried to introduce an 'Eco class', in which many of the modifications that were viewed as being expensive were removed - standard flywheels, original carb, standard cam - and entry fees were discounted. But despite being cheaper to enter and run the cars, take-up on this has been very minimal. Only one or two cars have entered the class. A strong reason for this is that the cars are much slower, and therefore people don't want to enter when there's pretty much no chance they can win.

If we allow more faster cars into our racing, it basically sends out the message that you can't compete until you get the newer, faster car. That isn't what our racing is, or should be about.

If we were to allow the C1, it would have to be on the proviso that it would need to be SLOWER than a 2cv. Would you still all want to join in then?

Chris Yates

Quote from: BertChalmers on October 19, 2016, 10:18:42
Everything you've done so far is aimed at those already IN the 2CV fraternity. The things is outside the die hard fans I think there are fewer and fewer people who want to race 2CVs.

You'd think there'd be fewer and fewer people who want to race Austin A35s. Yet there is suddenly a whole grid full of people who want to do so at Goodwood and other places. There's bugger all of them left, they're slow (ish) and they cost a fortune, yet they're described as FUN. Racing a 2CV is also FUN.

Would you go to Lord March or Julius Thurgood and tell them: "now look here, your cars are slow, expensive and difficult to maintain. Why don't we bring a load of C1s in and we can race those at your Goodwood Revival?"

Sound ridiculous? That's basically what you're suggesting to us. We have an event which is unique and we want to retain that uniqueness, and we don't want to be pushed out by a load of faster cars.

Quote from: BertChalmers on October 19, 2016, 10:18:42
1. 2cv enthusiasts (sadly a reducing group due to fewer and fewer being on the road)
2. 2cv enthusiasts who want to race a 2cv (a pretty thin tip of an already narrowing wedge)
3. people looking for cheap racing

Absolutely fine with us. If people want to do a cheap 24hr race, then they can come to us and RACE A 2CV. If people want to do cheap sprint racing then their options are more varied, but you can do 2CV racing on a shoestring budget, and many have.

Quote from: BertChalmers on October 19, 2016, 10:18:42
I am your target audience for getting more cars on the grid. I have a budget, not a vast one, I want to go racing. I want to get as much racing out of my money as I can. I love 2cvs and I love watching 2cv racing.

Good. I know of a couple of 2CVs for sale. Sounds like you're a perfect match. Ask someone who knows enough about 2CVs to help you.

Quote from: BertChalmers on October 19, 2016, 10:18:42
I love watching 2CVs and 2CV racing and I more than have the technical ability to build one and run one....  but I wouldn't


You still haven't answered my question - would you race a C1 if it HAD to be SLOWER than a 2CV?


indigorallye

Yes. I would.
There is always the option of BoP.
This could be in the form of weight, minimum pit stop time, or reduced allowance on fuel stops.

At the end of the day, it's a 2CV club, not a Citroen club so it's up to the committee and members.

FWIW, even as a seperate entity I think that the basic idea has potential.

BertChalmers

#57
The A35's have a full grid, and its expanding LM even mentioned they might have to put on a qualification race for them! and more are being built under Appendix K - its a rather different situation to what we find our selves in with 2CVs and its a rather different target a no I would not ask LM, but  I bet he wouldn't want Hybrids either.

And Yes, if all the C1s were the same speed and slower than the 2CVs Yes I totally would still build and race them.

Here's a point to consider. lets flip the conversation:
IF the 2CVs ran Club mandated parts, without the need for 36 pages regs cover the use of Ami 8/Super parts, this flywheel over that, and were FASTER...  do you think more people could be interested in racing them?

at the moment (from what I can see) you're trying to level a field of already slow cars (relatively)  by mandating parts that make them even slower and only slightly Cheaper.

naughtybear

I had zero 2cv knowledge when I built my Eco car and it beat club cars!! All this about hard to build, setup is just now nonsense
Naughtybear - powered by roarspeed!

Chris Yates

Quote from: BertChalmers on October 19, 2016, 11:07:37
The A35's have a full grid, and its expanding LM even mentioned they might have to put on a qualification race for them! and more are being built under Appendix K - its a rather different situation to what we find our selves in with 2CVs and its a rather different target a no I would not ask LM, but  I bet he wouldn't want Hybrids either.

Might be a different target audience, but they have a unique event, and they have built a close, competitive field of cars to race in that event, and wouldn't want a bunch of newer cars coming in and taking attention away from them. Which is the situation we find ourselves in.

Yes, the C1s were invited this year because grid numbers were looking worryingly thin *at the time*, but thanks to people encouraging competitors to bring out 2CVs, the club could have run the 24hrs without C1s and still made a small profit. I expect this situation to be better next year.

I expect if C1s are invited, then it might even discourage 2CVs entering. I've heard this from several 2CV racers already. For a club that is called "The 2CV Racing Club", then this is not what we want.

Quote from: BertChalmers on October 19, 2016, 11:07:37
IF the 2CVs ran Club mandated parts, without the need for 36 pages regs cover the use of Ami 8/Super parts, this flywheel over that, and were FASTER...  do you think more people could be interested in racing them?

Possibly. But it would probably be at the expense of those competitors who want to compete on a budget.

Quote from: BertChalmers on October 19, 2016, 11:07:37
at the moment (from what I can see) you're trying to level a field of already slow cars (relatively)  by mandating parts that make them even slower and only slightly Cheaper.

You are incorrect. Some of the mandated parts are to level the playing field, but actually make the cars quicker. Some were introduced because of a concern over parts availabilty and arguably make the cars slightly quicker. None of those I can think of are any cheaper than standard 2CV parts.

Bottom line: You can build a C1 racer and you can race it elsewhere. There are clubs and series where it can race competitively against similar modern cars. We CANNOT race our cars anywhere else. Nor do we want to. So instead of trying to effectively take over our 24hour race, why not go away and start your own race series and earn your own 24hour race, like we had to originally, instead of trying to bully your way into someone else's championship.