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Bank Holiday 24 Hour Race and Radio Costs

Started by Trevor Williams, July 22, 2019, 11:00:01

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Trevor Williams

Just seen the board minutes and I wanted to give my views on the two issues above

Firstly, whilst the idea of running the 24 hour race over the August Bank Holiday is appealing from the point of BARC being able to run two meetings, having clerked the previous time this happened I would say its a no go. The issue is from a staffing point of view. Organisation staff would have to be there from Friday afternoon, run night qualifying, then run the 24 Hour race (starting at no later than 12:00 noon), and then run a full meeting from 13:00 on the sunday to Monday curfew to make it viable. Then the volunteers would have to go home and back to their day jobs on the Tuesday. Having done that previously, I would definitely not want to do it again. The exhaustion would be (and was) just too much.

Secondly, radios, as was stated in the minutes are expensive. A club setup from Autotel in in the region of £1,000. Add to that licence costs (which for Spa are around £350), helmet kits (£174.00 from Autotel per driver), ear pieces ( £126.00 for foam or £246 for moulded) and you are north of £2,500 additional costs for one race. And that's assuming none of your drivers have Stilo helmets which have a different comms setup from Peltor style. Yes you can do it cheaper by purchasing second hand radios etc, but you would still need to get hold of a car loom and all the helmet, licence etc.

In my opinion, both these ideas should be non-starters

Cheers

Trevor
Some days, it's REALLY difficult being me!

Marty

Hi,
in the minutes :  "MH suggested that radios should be considered for Snetterton as he had heard feedback from the EnduroKA 12 hours that their use added to the enjoyment of the event. These could have a price of around £1,500 which could be too expensive for some teams and Simon Crook also raised the issue of limits on available channels."

Just a modest contribution from me, about the use of radios :
I raced several Belgian 24Hs, with LeMans2CVClassic team (#172), and we thought that having a radio in the future would be a guarantee of safety for the drivers and the team.
In 2018, with team GTE40 (#40), we invested in a paired radio with a mobile phone: the DG-10 Stilo costs 449 € (£ 400) and works with Stilo equipped helmets.

We were very satisfied with the pilot-pit connection, which is done in Bluetooth in the 2CV, and conventional telephone connection then, which doesn't need channels, costs nothing in licenses and almost nothing in telephone costs.
If possible, we'll be happy to use this solution during the participation of LeMans2CVClassic team at Snetterton in 2020.
I don't know if this contribution is timely, but here is my contribution to the debate  ;)

Paul

Quote from: Trevor Williams on July 22, 2019, 11:00:01
Just seen the board minutes and I wanted to give my views on the two issues above

Firstly, whilst the idea of running the 24 hour race over the August Bank Holiday is appealing from the point of BARC being able to run two meetings, having clerked the previous time this happened I would say its a no go. The issue is from a staffing point of view. Organisation staff would have to be there from Friday afternoon, run night qualifying, then run the 24 Hour race (starting at no later than 12:00 noon), and then run a full meeting from 13:00 on the sunday to Monday curfew to make it viable. Then the volunteers would have to go home and back to their day jobs on the Tuesday. Having done that previously, I would definitely not want to do it again. The exhaustion would be (and was) just too much.

Secondly, radios, as was stated in the minutes are expensive. A club setup from Autotel in in the region of £1,000. Add to that licence costs (which for Spa are around £350), helmet kits (£174.00 from Autotel per driver), ear pieces ( £126.00 for foam or £246 for moulded) and you are north of £2,500 additional costs for one race. And that's assuming none of your drivers have Stilo helmets which have a different comms setup from Peltor style. Yes you can do it cheaper by purchasing second hand radios etc, but you would still need to get hold of a car loom and all the helmet, licence etc.

In my opinion, both these ideas should be non-starters

Cheers

Trevor
I think the thought was that while Snetterton do not have a meeting that weekend,we could still have a two day meeting Sat /Sun.

Simon Crook

yes Paul, that was my understanding of what was being pitched
Simon Crook - Back Racing in 2013
LUMACA RACING

Martin Harrold

Hi, all:

Radio communication between cars and pitwall

I don't think that there is any doubt that most teams would like radio if it was cost effective. In some researches I have come across radio sets to be used by groups of motorcyclists.They work on Bluetooth and one claims a range of 1500m, several claim 500m.

Obviously, testing would be needed, but even 500m is more than the length of the pit straight and that's plenty for a short message. The sets seem to cost about £50 for a person/set and are designed to retrofit into normal helmets. And no licence is needed. Whether there is a choice of 'frequency' allowing 30 cars to have different frequencies I do not know - possibly not, which would make the whole concept un-viable. But worth a bit more investigation. And - no, we have not yet acquired a set to trial!!!
2CV Team LION
2CVParts.com Champions 2014, 2015, 2018, 2019, 2021 & 2022
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Trevor Williams

Martin
You are talking about PMR446 licence free radios. 16 UHF Channels in total, with CTCSS tone lock available on most sets. Range is dependant on terrain being used. As these frequencies are available to anyone, if there is someone else using it in the same area you will have bleed over. Also, you cannot have a separate aerial attached to the device and power output of the radio is restricted to 0.5w. Most licenced systems are 5w minimum for VHF and 4w minimum for UHF

As for the helmet kits that are used with motorbikes, NONE of them are compliant with MSuk and FiA regulations, as they utilise helmet mounted speakers.

Some days, it's REALLY difficult being me!

Marty

Quote from: Marty on July 23, 2019, 08:53:22
Hi,
in the minutes :  "MH suggested that radios should be considered for Snetterton as he had heard feedback from the EnduroKA 12 hours that their use added to the enjoyment of the event. These could have a price of around £1,500 which could be too expensive for some teams and Simon Crook also raised the issue of limits on available channels."

Just a modest contribution from me, about the use of radios :
I raced several Belgian 24Hs, with LeMans2CVClassic team (#172), and we thought that having a radio in the future would be a guarantee of safety for the drivers and the team.
In 2018, with team GTE40 (#40), we invested in a paired radio with a mobile phone: the DG-10 Stilo costs 449 € (£ 400) and works with Stilo equipped helmets.

We were very satisfied with the pilot-pit connection, which is done in Bluetooth in the 2CV, and conventional telephone connection then, which doesn't need channels, costs nothing in licenses and almost nothing in telephone costs.
If possible, we'll be happy to use this solution during the participation of LeMans2CVClassic team at Snetterton in 2020.
I don't know if this contribution is timely, but here is my contribution to the debate  ;)

Would it be a problem to use a Bluetooth system that makes the connection between an equipped helmet and a phone positioned in the 2CV ?
This phone calls or responds with a single touch to any other mobile phone, for example in the pits.

The DG-10 Stilo, which our team is using now costs £ 355 (https://rrs-direct.com/intercom-stilo-dg-10-digitale.html).
No licenses to buy, no problem of saturation if too many users, no problem of power output or range.
It allows the connection between the 2CV and its stand, but also if necessary between driver and co-pilot in the 2CV, or can record the sound of the communications to an on-board camera.

Trevor Williams

The DG-10 is purely an intercom system for driver to co-driver communication in rally. It still requires connection to a radio

The Stilo Verbacom is thier Bluetooth "Ship to Shore" communication system. Costs north of £1,000, and still requires all drivers to have a Stilo helmet kit installed (or and adaptor if drivers use a Peltor helmet kit)
Some days, it's REALLY difficult being me!

wilbot

What about binning the radio idea and keeping a level playing field it's supposed to be a reasonably cheap sport and fun not a I can spend more than you to get to front event ............

Marty

I'm sorry, Trevor, but this device allows you to call pits via a mobile phone left in the car. It's effectively an intercom between pilot and co-pilot, but the most interesting function (besides noise cancellation and connection to a possible camera) is that the pilot uses Bluetooth at no cost to be connected to a mobile phone in pits. For more details, look at the material data sheet.
I'm sure we can keep a level playing field with our reasonably cheap sport : this equipment costs the equivalent of 6 tires... and can serve a lot of times ;)

Andrew Bull

Of course this is only a wish list item anyway. Because unless we rewrite the regulations then it's all smoke up your arse!!!
Andrew Bull
Tête Rouge Racing with Habitabull & Propolis
Rookie Champion       2022
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championship winner 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2013