ARE WE RACING NEXT YEAR?ITS UP TO YOU

[Andrew Bull]

Chris,

you missunderstand the point I was making.  I have no motive to alienate budget racers, but the point was that people need to be made aware of the true cost of racing a car, not just the initial purchase price. Our old style philosophy of big thrills small bills can no longer be utilised as a representative slogan, in this day and age.  Regardless of what the car is and the maintenance costs, there are still other things to pay for that are pretty much fixed price items for anyone in any championship.

I am all for anyone who can afford to put a car on the grid doing so, but they have to be able to do it and we also have to be aware of what draws people to the series.  If you dont have a budget for new parts each year or a mediocre develepment you cannot expect to win races, over people who have put not only a few quid in to rolling road time (for example) but also the hundreds of man hours that development / research requires.  The results of which are always made available to anyone who asks.

So who has the lower costs each year? The few that do the development, or the people that dont do any development work and simply gain the knowledge or parts at reasonable prices.

This whole issue generates the question should we reduce delvelopment and cut costs by not modifying anything and returning to the situation 15 years ago whereby everything is (allegedly) standard.  (Dont forget, even standards have a variance and tolerance).  This then brings back the same problems we have had about policing standard items that are outside of tolerances but off shelf stock parts.  

Standard items are not always equal in terms of performance.  Anyone whose driven different 2cv's on the road wil tell you that sometimes you get an engine that feels flat and gutless, and others will happily rev thier tits off.  Both standard items, but with vast differences in terms of performance.

[TerryCollier]

Hi

Just one thing on Budget racers. The truth is that this series is cheap compared to other series. This is a point I have always made to interested parties. My total development budget for producing a winning 2CV over three years was far less than it would cost to do a single season in Caterhams or anything else. The actual racing costs, as has been said, is much of a muchness. I just had 2CV racing as my hobby rather than Golf and was lucky enough to be able to afford it.

Getting a 2CV to go fast on the track is not just the engine -- although it helps. I have put the same engine with the same driver in different cars and achieved a 2 second lap time difference. To deal with the rest of the car does not take money it takes both time and thought. The engine will lose power between the flywheel and the wheel. Why? What is taking up power? Can I release this power? Just look in the Haynes Manual at the parts that make up the drive chain and think how you can make it lighter and more efficient. You can get up to more than 30% more power delivered to the wheel following this route and buy little more than different lubrication. Setting corner weights and ride heights costs nothing but can increase your lap times. It might be worth thinking as you go round the track -- Not what is my car not doing for me But what have I done for the car! Time spent with a good reference book, being analytical and slightly obsessive produces faster lap times

I believe that we must try to keep costs down to a level that new racers can think of it as an impulse buy. It's not serious money so worth a try. If someone is willing to pay £5000 for the slowest Silverstone 24 hour car then to him a racing 2CV is not serious money. The driving experience is more exciting and dramatic than anyone else offers for a fraction of the cost.

Regards

Terry

[Derek Harnett]

Some general comments from someone who has raced in the past and can no longer afford to make the trip back and forth across the Irish sea multiple times a year  :(  .

On the 3x24hr race idea, be careful that people don't start to pick and choose which of the three they'd prefer to do and end up with small grids for all three races.

As to the regular race weekend format, whilst the sprint plus enduro format always worked well for me as I brought along a guest driver to share the weekends costs, if you get a lot of cars parked in the paddock for the enduro round as sprint drivers double up then I think it's not a great format as the enduro entries will be low.  

I also think some thought as to the tracks raced at (ie suited to our speed and handling characteristics) along with a sensible calendar (nice gaps between rounds) would be beneficial.  This may be where the BARC have to be persuaded to play ball with us.

Can I ask how many new drivers are entering the championship, having raced in the 24 hour in the last 2 or 3 years?  This was how I came along and I wasn't alone, GaryAdnitt, Steve Panas and Martin Harold for example all started the same year I did via the same route.  If we're not converting 24 hour drivers into championship drivers then that's an area I think should be focused on.  Perhaps they are the people to ask what form of championship would entice them along.

One final observation, the first year I raced in the championship there were full grids and reserve drivers being sent home without a race.  Co-incidentally (perhaps) we had a 2 hour race in Spa thay year and many folks requiring upgrades to their licences.  So rather than a class in the 24 hour race, could another support race be looked into?

[Derek Coghill]

Hi Derek, as I recall we were due to have another support race at Spa (either the next year or the one after, can't remember) but we got bumped in favour of the Porsche Cup or something. Last time I went (2 years ago) they had 2 support races. One saloons and one sportscars I think?

It would be nice, though, fabulous place to go to.

[Trevor Williams]

All,
Just to focus everyones minds in the month or so leading up to the AGM, get a copy of Motorsport News, read and inwardly digest the article on page 9 entitled "MSA Weilds The Axe"

Just for interest, our grid average this season was 18.6!!!

Cheers

Trevor

[Trevor Williams]

Just to throw a few more pigeons into the group of cats that I am trying to herd at the moment;

Surely, if you lighten any part of the valve train or drive-train, you are in fundamental breach of both Regulation 5.1 and 5.7.2. Namely, if it doesn't say that you can, you can't!!

I stand to be corrected, but that is my interpretation of our regs. If it is incorrect I will propose some words to tighten the regs on this matter

Cheers

Trevor

[Geoff Archer]

Just to throw a few more pigeons into the group of cats that I am trying to herd at the moment;

Surely, if you lighten any part of the valve train or drive-train, you are in fundamental breach of both Regulation 5.1 and 5.7.2. Namely, if it doesn't say that you can, you can't!!

I stand to be corrected, but that is my interpretation of our regs. If it is incorrect I will propose some words to tighten the regs on this matter

Cheers

Trevor

wots the std weight then?????

and wots the machine tollorance on the cams??

love been a pigeon

[Bob Rice]

Geoff,
not sure about the standard weight, but I reckon a good pigeon should be about a pound and a half!

[keith shoebridge]

Thats the trouble with you ferret catchers ,down SOUTH we have Grouse.

[Francis Rottenburg]

Good one Trev I completely agree.  We can easily agree a standard by simply getting an engine out of any road car.  Take the engine to bits and paint all the bits a particular colour so we don't lose them and stick them in a club "box".  Go to the first race of next season and weigh all the bits and then take views from say Graham Harper, Roy Eastwood, Paul Robertson and perhaps an independent engine developer - doesn't matter who but a representative selection of people - on whether the those bits are a fair example.  Get those guys to agree what is a fair variation due to manufacturing tolerance based on their experience of those bits AND therefore an absolute lower limit.  Keep the box in Trev's car and if there is an issue then the bit in the box is the standard.  Yes there are all sorts of potential objections but if an engine builder knows that the rocker in Trev's box weighs 72 grammes and the one on the new engine weighs 63 grammes then you simply have to find one in tolerance - even if the one currently fitted is some quirky standard item.

We could even agree that a bit - made between Jan and Feb 1967 in a little known Citroen plant located in a Siberian forge close to a nuclear reactor site that could explain why is has a peculiar coating and doesn't seem to weigh even 80% of the majority of parts - is the standard.  It really doesn't matter as long as the bit in the box is the standard.  If we begin to run out of production bits that conform to the standard then either Roy makes some new ones or we change the standard at the end of the year if necessary.

Dunno about pigeons but there seem to be a few racing dodos in my house sadly....

I loved Mallory, you guys put on a wonderful display of close racing - I went home a sat in the garage and cried while looking at the unloved/unraced beast.  Maybe next year...

[Bob Rice]

Two or three approved engine suppliers.
leased, sealed engines, on exchange.

levels the playing field and resolves all issues!.

[Trevor Williams]

Francis,
We are getting near to that situation. Steve Walker has had an engine since he became our scrutineer and I believe he has taken it apart to get to grips with the various components.

As to your suggestion that a box of bits is kept in my car, are you trying to nobble me by making me carry additional weight????? :lol:

[Geoff Archer]

in an ideal world std would be great, remember to us engine builders the build of an engine as search for the parts as close to the regs is as important as the race, thats the fun to us (yes may be sad that, make mental note must get out more and stop w*ank*ng )

WHEN IS ANY ONE OF YOU GOING TO RELISE A POOR DRIVER ALWAYS BLAMES HIS CAR!!! REMEMBER 2000 WHEN CHRISTINE USED OUR CAR AND WE USED HERS??? THE RESULT?

WELL HOW ABOUT WE HAVE STD DRIVERS

[Bob Rice]

Std Drivers, I'd never get down to the weight!!

[Andrew Bull]

Have we all forgotten that there are more than just engines in cars.  

There are more than just the basic engine components to adversly effect performance.  In fact i think it is probably the only thing that is relatively standardised.

1 Suspension settings, dampers, spring rates, tyres choice, tyre pressures
2 wieght of the car and driver and fluids.  (Halfords screen wash is worth   3/10ths sec per lap over cheap supermarket stuff!!)
3 Fuel type used.  95 ron standard, 98 ron Optimax, 99 ron V-power/Tesco.
4 Castor and camber angles.
5 Body shell preparation and stifness
6 Chassis type.  SLC, Frome, genuine stitch welded.
7 Gearbox lubricatants.
8 Carburettur type, jetting, and filtration
9 Spark Plug grades
10 KNOWLEDGE (such as being able to read spark plug colour and make changes accordingly)
11 Exhaust system.  Primary, collector, secondary, silencer, and tail pipe.
12 DRIVER ABILITY in particular car.  (Nigel Mansell never did anything in BTCC but won a world championship in an F1 car).  This is the only nut on the car a mechanic or engine builder cannot change!!
13 And Finally Engine.

Not only do all these items combine to make the complete package, but the quality of preparation, the amount of preparation, attention to detail, and quality of all the individual parts that go together all make a difference.