ARE WE RACING NEXT YEAR?ITS UP TO YOU

[Bob Rice]

Oh dear!

Paul, I hardly think that the person who started this thread could describe himself as a Dinosaur, and using the title  "ARE WE RACING NEXT YEAR?ITS UP TO YOU" is surely courting controversy far more than anything that I have written above. I formed the opinion that you were far more frustrated by the lack of other peoples involvment than me.

A couple of points from your response, firstly, Keith and I each speak only for ourselves not for each other or even as a team, indeed Keith is fully aware that I do not agree with some of his ideas, and that I personally think some of what he says is flawed, however I do support his right to say it.

Regarding my comments, they are drawn largely from earlier postings from Rod (Max5 and MR2), Pete (hire Mandate) and others, though you and others may need to go back and read the entire thread again to recognise that.

:D Regarding the Chairmanship comments, I tried to make my position on all of this clear by comments within my postings such as "I don't pretend to know how to do that" and "See you at Silverstone - 9th, 10th September". But please don't interperate that as me not caring about the club, though I will be even less involved in the racing next year. So I hardly see myself as a candidate, though you might propose Keith and see what happens!

There are lots of interesting comments in this thread from not too many contributors, and I think that maybe some one should go through them all and list them for further debate and consideration. But isn't that the crux of it all, how many members has the club got?, how many of them care enough to have listed in this thread?

8) As for the dark glasses, I had to give up winking at girls a long time ago, all I can say is that Keith must have an excellent memory!!

By the way, can anyone tell me what came out of the meeting over Stevenage way :?:

[Dick Roberts]

Hello

Here is a voting facility on this forum.

If someone wants to draw up a list of alternatives and post is a new (voting) topic then forum users can vote (once each) from the selection offered.

Best wishes

[Derek Coghill]

<Here we go again, two responses that offer critiscm and no practical input. >

Not true; just pointing out that (1) there are rules that the Belgians have regarding the Spa 24hrs that differ from ours (their regs can be downloaded from their website, one part common to all and another part for each class), and (2) that it's a hike for me to get to any circuit and that a South-of-England series would be impractical for me (and probably others).

http://2cvracingcup.skynetblogs.be/

[TerryCollier]

Hi

I appreciate the comments so far BUT

Hearsay or historic comments do not apply to today's situation. For example the refuelling situation at Spa can be overcome with a degree of reasonable negotiation. However, we will not change our method as it will involve too much cost. But we will be bringing 30 cars at £2000 to the table. £60000 carries a lot of bargaining rights especially to an organisation which is struggling to fund this event on an ongoing basis. It is even possible that running a much more "standard" 2CV might attract more Continental Drivers to compete.

My basic suggestion was for an operating group to be formed to examine the viability of doing this. This should be a properly run project with a series of progress reports for members to consider and agree before moving on. Without going into the full list of considerations they must include budgetary concerns (entry fees, estimated repair costs, travel etc) Club Organisation handling the discovery and management of spare drivers (as per Snetterton), Sponsorship, and Promotion. In addition we should consider the position of the Scots and Irish who have been such a valuable component of 2CV racing.

Re the comment about being radical I would suggest that this suggestion is radical as it fundamentally changes how we compete. Everything else I have seen so far is merely changing details but staying with any combination of 1/2, 1, or 2hour races plus a 24 one. What do we know? This is not seemingly attractive even for experienced racers to go the extra mile, so attracting new ones must be a distinct question mark.

All I am interested in is whether the membership think the concept is worthwhile following up or not.

Fundamentally we live in a competitive age but so what? I believe a three 24 hour race series is a sellable idea. Add into this the nature of the driving experience, the relative low cost (about £4000 or less for three 24 hour races including the "magic" of Spa, for arrive and drive people) and the challenge of driving the 2CV and gaining entrants is not the biggest problem.

I have spent my working life determining and running Strategic Marketing Projects, mostly successfully! I do not see this as a major challenge, it does not compare to handling the 24th antibiotic which only deals with sore throats and making it the number one in Europe!

I believe in 2CV racing, I think that it offers drivers more in the way of learning how to handle a racing car, how to develop racing tactics and the understanding of how a race team must work to be successful than any other series available. Nowhere else can you learn and implement everything to do with a racing car, from engine through the drive train to suspension and set up. This is my experience who with a couple of manuals, a socket set and a Dremmel managed to do OK. So I did have the help of a great mechanicing crew and a driver who wanted to develop as much as I did.

So I wait to hear for your like or dislike views.

Terry Collier

[rod stead]

As one who races in other series ...................

I'd have done more races this year if the timetable had better fitted in with other aspects of life, like work, holidays, childrens commitments etc..
I put a posting to this effect as soon as the timetable was published.

I've never raced in another series in preference to a 2CV.

3*24hour races is a great idea but I don't think my part-time mechanics could cope with the rebuilds!

But, moving to an endurance-based race series makes us different to anything else that's out there.
I've come from racing in the old JCC Centurian challenge - 100 mile/75 minute races.
The bills were eye-watering!
Britsport is even more so - and the races are shorter!

No other club offers cost-effective & fun endurance racing whereas plenty of other clubs offer cost-effective sprint racing.
I mentioned Max5's & MR2's of examples of what we're up against.
Their cars cost about the same to prepare as ours.

But they can't do endurance races!
So let's be bold & different by playing to our strength - the club that offers cost-effective endurance racing, as well as being full of a bunch of great people.

[Bob Rice]

Now we're cooking, a move to an endurance only series would / will give the club a unique selling point, though it sounds as if the race lengths, frequency and venues would take a while to resolve, but hasn't Trevor already stated that that is what they are trying to get for next year anyway.

I would support Spa and Snetterton, though more 24hrs would be a challenge, I would also be prepared to travel further, if dates were convenient, for races in the UK if they were to offer races of 2hrs or more. However, we mustn't forget that the choice of circuits and organising body would have a critical effect on the affordability factor.

I still think there is a need to address the performance imbalance maybe by means of sealed engines or even turn key cars - as with Max5, if we want to draw more new people in.

What are peoples thoughts on that?

Rod is correct, Britcar is incredibly expensive, even in a Civic, but nevertheless well supported.

[keith shoebridge]

Good ideas.

Why don,t we join the UK club to the Belgium club and see what mix and match comes up ?

[pat collier]

I have also been following the thread, I have no right to make suggestions as i am one of the 24 hr charlies....
I have raced in other stuff a great deal faster and trickier to drive but without doubt the racing (agin 24 hr) is better here and different.
I and all the others who have been associated with Collier Racing, Gary Adnitt Stuart, Shaun, Terry, etc  started because we fancied doing a 24 hour race.... I think that this is the hook.. Basically which ever way you slice it 2cv racing will be regarded by any existing drivers as SLOW and therefore easy..( This I may add is fundamentally false!) But the perception will not change!!!
I like the idea of the 24 hour racing, and I think that the point that drivers will do the Britsport 24 hour instead of ours is missing the cost point.
I think that you could sell 3 24 hour races for £4k per driver pretty easily in fact I have asked a few drivers I know and as one said to me "well thats cheaper than a 4th drive in a shit car in the Nurembergring 24hour! " I bet its pretty competitive with the same at Silverstone.
The club, of which I am not a member, may do as it pleases and I sincerly hope that all the good work that many people do is not wasted.. Yes you all have fun together, but in my opinion you have the opertunity to take control of your destiny, but just throwing things out there without looking into options and understanding the risks is doomed to failure.

On the engine front .... we built, that is Collier Racing not me, 3 or 4 engines that we used at Snetterton this year. 1 in gadgit did 1.48  1 in Hollis couldnt do a 1.55... same spec engine... I like to think that Richard and Matt aren't too bad drivers so ignore my driving  but we just couldn't didn't have the time  or what ever to get it right... sealing these engines will not make the series better or gttee closer or larger grids, understanding why anyone new would race a 2cv will..

please feel free to ignore or even take out this notice

[philip myatt]

Hi guys,
This must be an all time record for a posting on the forum, 1285 views and counting, it certainly seems to have caught peoples attention thats for sure.
However, we now have the downside, a decision is required, and as a democratic club everyone rightly has an equal say, this does seem to be having a few draw backs in narrowing our choices as to the solution to ensuring the clubs existance into the future. Are we going to end up with yet another AGM voted compromise that does nothing to actually solving the problem.
As a starter for a new approach can I suggest that a group of say 5 people are chosen/voted somehow elected, it could be that they are the 5 people who have done the most races over the last 5 years and are clearly staunch supporters of the club. These 5 would have the maybe unenvious delegated responsibility to decide the future direction of the club, their decision final, no questions.

This is clearly a very important decision, the future of the club could rest on it. personley I dont think a 65 man committee is going to the take the hard decisions to try and resolve this one.

Is this too radical. What do you all think.

Cheers, see you all at the dinner dance

Philip

[Bob Rice]

Philip,

I respect your suggestions to try and pull something out of this thread, clearly people's attention appears to have been grabbed by the title.
Your comment regarding the number of viewings is valid, but a further observation is that fewer than 30 peole have bothered to respond. Seeing that the thread has been running since July 11th, if each of 30 people had looked back once every day that would be over 1500 viewings, cynical I know but's that how an analyst would look at it.

So to be controversial, different for me, could I suggest that a person could conclude that less than half of the membership give a D**n. But I would be happy to see 50 or more post's challenging that statement.

I think your suggestion regarding a seperate study group is excellent, and is the only sensible progression, five people would be a manageable size and could be effective. I do however think that to suggest that people who have raced the most over the past years would be more suitable than say five people who have supported the club over the same period but never raced is narrowing the choice rather too much. I think that clearly there must be some excellent candidates amongst those that have posted here, certainly there are those who have volunteered for various things over the past 50 days. Could I further suggest that the group should not include any committee members, past or present, but should work alongside the present committee, then you would be more likely to get unrestrained thinking.

Your paragraph regarding the 65 man committee is probably the best 'summing up' so far.

No, it's not to radical, you should be applauded for giving some serious thought to the matter.

Dinner dance, sorry I can't make it.

Bob

[rod stead]

No point me being on the committee of 65 or less as I'm a confirmed endurance fan!
I'll give my vote to the chairperson of said committee.

The composition of the committee is interesting.
I'd like it to comprise of:
Die-hard racer, like P.Sparrow
Occasional racers
24-only racers, like Bob Rice
New racers
Former racers, like Pete Simpson

This spectrum of racers, with various levels of experience & commitment, represent the cross-section  that have at one point in time raced with the club. They should be able to work out what is needed to generate grids of 20+ cars in terms of type of events, location & duration.

Can't make the AGM either as in France for half term.

[Nigel Hollis]

Just got back from holiday and thought I would sit down and read the latest postings- wondered whether I have been in a coma and it was now April 1st!
I think we are all agreed that what is needed is new or former drivers who are keen to turn up on a regular basis. In my opinion to help achieve this there needs to be:-

Advertising the existence of a forthcoming race meeting, not only in the press but why not hang a notice on the back of your car on the way.

As the overall speeds are lower the racing needs to be exciting both for the driver and the audience with plenty of close formation & overtaking.

Running costs kept to a minimum with cars as far as possible having equal performance. I am sure some drivers have become disillusioned with the steady no. of performance 'tweeks' with increased costs and technical knowledge e.g. exhaust systems, air filters, compulsory camshaft, and have given up realising they would never be able to compete at the front of the grid

Testing. Again to help those without neither the time or cash, and close the pack up prohibit testing at the next meetings circuit prior to that meeting.

Endurance Races. Where does the closest  & most exciting racing occur for both driver and spectator? SPRINT racing. I say MORE sprint races not less! If you want to go round & round usually on your own and not really knowing who you are racing and unlikely to catch anyway if you become detached, may I suggest you go along to Bruntingthorpe Proving Ground where it will only cost you £60 hr.

It is my opinion that going to Endurance only with minimum no. of meetings is wrong, with no guarantee of regular increased grids, and with distinct possibility of existing regulars withdrawing. Remember only a few seasons ago grids were quite often oversubscribed but with Reserves taking their cars to meetings anyway and willing to sacrifice a full refund!
(the computer has crashed twice at the last moment whilst writing this but have preserved as I feel so strongly on the subject! Am I the only one?)

Nigel.

[Steve Panas]

The likelyhood for next season which was discussed at a meeting last month will be 4 enduro rounds and the 24. The meeting was suggested at very short notice as a response to the discussions mainly on the forum board. The suggestion was that as the enduro races in 2006 were better supported;  then to maintain average grid sizes logically enduro was the result. this of course has to be ratified via the AGM.
   The racing  has virtually always been a combination of sprint championship and enduro series. Both have their following. Various avenues are being investigated that are not available for comment through this forum board. A lot of effort which is not reflected on the forum board here is ensuring that the dinosaurs will not become extinct. The idea of the original thread from Paul is to stimulate thoughts for a format for next season. It would appear that this has been partly successful.  It would also appear that no new format has been put forward for consideration.
   Here is my suggestion for a new format. This is assumming that the Enduro format suggested is adopted.
These would probably be Pembrey, Anglesey, Mallory and Silverstone.
At each meeting run three sprint races of approx 15 mins duration each. Qualifying would be very short on the Sat morning or could even  be taken from the enduro qualifying. Race one would be early on the Saturday with race two to be later in the day. The top places  in race one would be reversed and the top five would carry "success ballast". Race three to take place at the earliest point on Sunday would be the finishing order of race two with the amount of reversal being dictated from a draw. Again the top five from race two would carry "success ballast". The enduro race to start later in the day.  At the next venue the top five in the series would carry "success ballast" through qualifying and into race one.  Points scored to be 15, 12, 10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1. One point for race one pole, one point for fastest lap and one point for each leader of the race.
   Cost would be in the region of £1200 for the 12 race series. If you are doing the enduro no cost in getting there. If your car is only doing enduro then there is the chance of clawing back your costs via a hire for the sprint series. Likewise if your preference is for sprint then a hire for the enduro is possible either as a complete hire or half drive. Putting time between each race enables any problems to be resolved.
   This idea has been discussed with various drivers so far to guage opinion. The idea has the backing so far of thirteen drivers who have confirmed their support of the sprint series. To make this work the base figure would need to be 16 to break even. Numbers above this would create profit and the chance of possible further racing. It is hoped to discuss this as a proposal at the AGM.

Steve

[Catherine Noble]

Could qualifying for an endurance race be run as a Sprint race?

C x

[rod stead]

Forgive me because I am just a bean counter .......

The suggestion is:

short quali for the sprint race
quali for the endurance race
sprint race 1
endurance race
sprint race 2
sprint race 3

All in the same day?

With a 3 man endurance team, each member doing a sprint race as well ............. an interesting idea & very cost effective!
I'd be up for that, dates permitting.

Someone like the EERC would appreciate this format - they'd love to have cars on track when their premier cars weren't out because it would mean more money for them!

But could we swap Angelsey for somewhere else?
Lovely circuit but it's just such a long way from anywhere!

Could we approach the independent circuits like Castle Coombe, Goodwood, Lydden or Donnington for a date instead?